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Oren Talks to Bestselling Author Jeb Blount

In this Episode, Oren talks to Jeb about Fanatical Prospecting, one of Jeb blunt's bestselling books.

Each year, Jeb touches tens of thousands of people through his training programs, workshops, books, articles, podcasts, videos, and keynote speeches. He is known for his unique ability to make complex concepts simple and easy to consume. Jeb transforms organizations by helping people reach peak performance fast and is a trusted adviser to companies and their executives across the globe.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Oren Klaff: Dave for lively discussion about deal-making to focus on things that are new in culture, technology, and business with specific application to deal-making the OKR is or okay. PS or the outcome here is you should leave here with two or three things you can do today to improve the deal-making in your business yourself.

[00:00:23] Oren Klaff: I'm very excited to hear I've got a great guest read a couple of his books, very excited to have him on interested to have his opinion, that he's very opinionated on some things we agree on. Some things disagree on others, ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to introduce you to Zig Ziglar .

[00:00:35] Oren Klaff: Zig, welcome to the show.

[00:00:38] Jeb Blount: Hi Oren, how are you?

[00:00:39] Oren Klaff: Good job. Good to meet you. Where are you calling in from?

[00:00:42] Jeb Blount: I'm in Augusta, Georgia.

[00:00:45] Oren Klaff: All right. Great. I've read your books over time with great interest. And I pulled one out and surprisingly, I had chapters highlighted and outlined and and some really good takeaway.

[00:00:54] Oren Klaff: And one of the books I really liked was on objections and that's something I wanted to spend some time on. So I feel like let's talk about culture. Like you, you meet a lot of salespeople. What in your mind, what are salespeople doing wrong today that you see over and over?

[00:01:07] Oren Klaff: And it just makes your eyes. I'd like to compare notes on that. Like I, I've seen over 80,000 salespeople from stage in person, and just, it just so hard to get through to the young guys. What do you think they're doing wrong? I'd love to compare notes with you on that.

[00:01:23] Jeb Blount: That's a really broad question.

[00:01:24] Jeb Blount: What are salespeople doing wrong? I think that, relative to objections, I don't know that the salespeople are doing anything wrong other than doing what salespeople have been doing since the, for the last hundred years. And that is avoid rejection. That's just, it's just a natural thing for human beings to do.

[00:01:41] Jeb Blount: And, in the book itself, Talk about working with the military. So I do a lot of work with military recruiters, every branch of the military. And it's not a natural for us or not abnormal for us to be say, standing in front of a group of military recruiters who have just come back from combat missions, where people are shooting at them.

[00:01:59] Jeb Blount: They're, they're running into danger and and they're like doing everything possible to avoid calling up a teenager, to try to give them money. They're just recruiting a teenager. And when you finally get down to it you'll say to them like you, you had people shoot at you.

[00:02:12] Jeb Blount: They went, yeah. And then you ran into battle and they went, yeah. And you did that willingly. And they went, yeah. So what you're telling me is you're willing to take a bullet, but you're afraid to call a teenager and offer the money and they'll go, Yes sir, and what they'll say is I'd rather have someone shoot at me then to deal with rejection.

[00:02:29] Jeb Blount: And the thing is that when we start thinking about rejection and we start thinking about the emotions behind it, the two things that we fear the most as human beings is death and being kicked out of the group, being rejected and our brains. The fight or flight response, everything that's, the neurophysical response, all that is basically the same thing, except for crazy as it sounds, we fear rejection more than we fear death.

[00:02:52] Jeb Blount: And the problem with sales is that it's your job, right? To go out in the world and go find rejection and bring it home. So I wouldn't say that, salespeople are making like some grave mistake and it's generational. I think there are some generational things that are happening right now, but that's just not, I think it's not fair for you and me.

[00:03:11] Jeb Blount: You're probably, you're probably gen X I'm gen X. And we look back and think, we look at this generation, they, they just don't have it together, but the baby boomers would have looked at us and said the same thing. I think that there is there it's easier today to find channels, to communicate on that allow you to avoid being rejected directly and personally, and I think that people, salespeople are gravitating to that, but I will tell you this, our generation would have done exactly the same thing that just gen this generation is doing.

[00:03:43] Jeb Blount: If they could have avoided rejection.

[00:03:44] Oren Klaff: But let me test that a bit. I think things have changed. I don't know how old you are. You look like you're 35 or 33, or, but you're small on my screen. It could be a 80 year old serial killer. It's hard to see. But listen, when I grew up there, wasn't the safety net that the kids have today.

[00:04:03] Oren Klaff: I said this yesterday, my son would starve in our kitchen. If I didn't come home for a couple of days with a fridge full of. And he'd just be like who's going to bring me the food. But if you extrapolate that to a lot of the sort of 20 to 28 year olds, or see there are so many safety nets that they can go down from.

[00:04:21] Oren Klaff: So if you fail at your job, then you can do a gig on Upwork. If you fail in your gig at work, then you can be a a delivery guy. No, sorry. You can be Overdriver if you can't really work with people and you fill it over driver, and then you can be a delivery guy. If you can't be a delivery guy, then you know, the binding administration will hook you up.

[00:04:37] Oren Klaff: So I feel like there is not that factor of I have to deliver for myself. And so there is a sense of entitlement in young salespeople today in which I did my best. I read the script. I got the leads. I called the leads, where is the money that I have earned. And I feel like there is a sense of entitlement that wasn't when we were coming up to you.

[00:05:05] Oren Klaff: You say what?

[00:05:07] Jeb Blount: I was with a group of young leaders earlier today and we were having a conversation specifically around, their leadership and working with people. They're leading salespeople, they're all in their twenties. So they're, these are all 20 somethings and they were phenomenally talented people and not a single one of them was making excuses.

[00:05:24] Jeb Blount: We were making them do really hard things as leaders getting out of their comfort zones when they weren't making excuses. Hold a second, or you asked me a question, let me answer the question. So the thing is that I have a 23 year old son who was a stone cold. He makes a lot of money and he kicks ass at what he does.

[00:05:42] Jeb Blount: And he sells for my company and I'm dealing with, I work with salespeople and leaders across a wide swath of organizations. I've got a pretty big company and training team, and I see people who are entitled and I see people who probably shouldn't be in the sales profession. I see that there's a safety net.

[00:06:00] Jeb Blount: And I agree with you. Like it's a lot easier for people to hide the day than it was when, in the 1990s, when we didn't really even have email, like the only way to get with someone was to walk through their door or call them. But I don't think that it's fair for one generation to, with a broad brush, go over another generation and say you're a bunch of punks because you just don't have it together.

[00:06:22] Jeb Blount: It's really easy for us to say that every generation is different and every generation looks at the generation that comes next and says, you're a bunch of losers. And we have been doing that since Aristotle was on earth. We do that to every one of them. The thing that we have to accept. And I think this isn't true for us as leaders is that we have to accept that this is who they are and we better by God figure out how to lead and manage them and show them the way.

[00:06:49] Jeb Blount: And the one thing that is true, if we just go back and think about 10 years ago, the wall street journal said that millennials. They were a bunch of losers and they were never going to own homes. They were all living in cities. They're all at buying houses right now because they're just like me and you have a family.

[00:07:05] Jeb Blount: You want to go have a nice yard. You want to live. We do the same damn thing over and over again. Now, are there a bunch of salespeople that are exhibiting bad habits? Yeah, but there are a bunch of morons out here who are teaching them to send email all day long versus pick up the damn phone and call somebody.

[00:07:23] Jeb Blount: And they have this conversation with my buddy, Anthony and Reno yesterday. And I know that he told you exactly the same thing, but this is not the generation, right? These are people like you. And like me who have no freaking idea what they're doing, but they call themselves gurus who are, do, are harming people by telling them that there's an easy way out versus you got to go out and find some rejection and you got to bring it home.

[00:07:47] Oren Klaff: So this is where I wanted to get you. And I thought you were the right guy, but we're going to see in a minute. Nobody else will touch this culture. And I had joined a burger on here and I tried to get him talking about culture. Is that what I, we gotta be really careful here about my peer reviewed articles at Wharton.

[00:08:04] Oren Klaff: And so he didn't want to touch it, but I go to Instagram and I see, to your point, the gurus are people who have never done it for more than six months trying to teach people. Who've never done it at all, how to do it as a life living. But I do see, guides from more closer to our generation, like Gary Vaynerchuk who are now and he has gotten off a little of this, but his thing was hustle, right?

[00:08:26] Oren Klaff: So there's this sense of if I hustle and I work hard, then there is the entitlement that the things will show up. And so I feel like the guys we're running into, and I understand you have an elite squad of killers or leaders. So I want to do two things here. But I feel like this hustle society's hustle factor Instagram, where you get fortune cookie wisdom on your life, that you can apply at 8:00 AM, but by nine 30 in the morning, that started failed you because it is not a thoughtful exercise on the things that I think we care about.

[00:09:01] Oren Klaff: Status expertise, frame control, overcoming objections, before the objections come out dignity working with clients who are willing to work as hard as we will on their account, not begging for accounts, not coming in low status, not calling people and asking them for 27 seconds. So I come back on that stuff, but I also want to keep, make sure to keep you straight or honest or in synchronicity on what I call the Dan Arielli problem, which Dan Arielli takes 13 fucking college students that are white graduated modern day, went to USC doing a summer program.

[00:09:36] Oren Klaff: At Harvard gets them to write their names on a coffee cup, sells them that coffee cup for 78 cents and tries to buy half of them back with their names and a doodle, have their first dog on it. And they won't sell it back for $3 and 50 cents. Therefore there's some conclusion. And so the problem is we can get in these environments with one archetype, one socio-economic factor and draw broad conclusions about what works in sales, what works in life, what works in hustle.

[00:10:07] Oren Klaff: Two questions in there. How do you view Instagram and this sort of hustle culture, and second you work with leaders, but what do you, when you just meet salespeople at a conference and hear the questions, when you just see a sales pitch to you, and they don't know who you are, what are the comments.

[00:10:26] Oren Klaff: Mistakes that are part of this culture. So there's two different questions.

[00:10:31] Jeb Blount: When you talk about hustling culture, there's no doubt that hard work and grind, and I'm an entrepreneur. And, I, it looks like I've got instant success, but I've busted my ass to build this company.

[00:10:42] Jeb Blount: One step at a time I started off, literally, in my flip sitting in a home office, banging the phone, calling people up and trying to build a business and slowly but surely, built and built and millions of dollars later, you have a business and everybody says, oh, that's really good.

[00:10:55] Jeb Blount: I ran into a guy the other day ago that said, Hey, I've been watching YouTube. And they're like these guys are like, you can buy stuff and then you can go sell stuff and you don't have to have any money to do that. And they've made billions of dollars and I'm having this conversation cause I'm picking up some lumber and it's the guy that's loading the lumber on my truck.

[00:11:11] Jeb Blount: And I'm like, okay. So you're going to be able to make a whole lot of money really easy. And there's a billionaire. Who's already done this teaching you this on YouTube. I said, did you ever ask the question. If the guy's got a billion dollars doing this, why in the hell would he teach you how to do it?

[00:11:26] Jeb Blount: Like, why don't you do that

[00:11:27] Oren Klaff: That is the problem? I would like I disagree with you. So far on almost nothing, but it's gonna be a shitty show, but I got to find something to do disagree

[00:11:34] Jeb Blount: With them, understand what we have to get in a fight about that. But the truth is that like whenever he says that it's like, here's the deal.

[00:11:40] Jeb Blount: I don't take investment advice from poor people. I don't take diet advice from fat people. I just don't. Why? Because it's I don't want to go to a shrink. Who's already got a whole bunch of other problems who shrink in me. That's the problem. So the thing is that the dude's poor, he's telling you is a billionaire, but people are desperate to get out of their situation a hundred percent and they listen to this crap.

[00:12:02] Oren Klaff: So you think about it. So if,

[00:12:04] Jeb Blount: But that has nothing to do with the profession of selling that's, this is just culture in society as a whole, I want to make clear, this is a professional selling. Nobody. Who's got, a sense of our analysis sense in professional selling is paying attention to somebody on YouTube telling you, you can make a billion dollars on Shopify. Nobody's doing it.

[00:12:23] Oren Klaff: It's hard.

[00:12:23] Oren Klaff: Those guys are good. So I would just like the car like I think that they're compelling, the hooks that get AB data, they run the data. You get a Ty Lopez out there who I know very well, unfortunately. And so there is, once you run the ads, get the data, get people down your Warhol, but I would like to carve out for anybody listening, right?

[00:12:41] Oren Klaff: That if you think about Tony Robbins, he's a good example. Doesn't teach you, he charges, you go to his events. He does things, but he doesn't charge you to learn how to become Tony Robbins. He shows you how to be the best you can be. That's what he charges for. And, presumably he's efficient at it.

[00:13:03] Oren Klaff: If somebody is charging you to show you how to do what they do. It begs the question, why don't they just do more of what they do? So this is a cautionary tale for somebody to do sales for somebody teaching you Instagram ads for somebody teaching you how to run a course or be a dog Walker.

[00:13:21] Oren Klaff: And they, them they're charging you to show you what they do instead of doing more of what they do to have a real business. It's a problem. So this is a sidebar issue, but I just want to verify. And also the other thing I'd like to say, and I think we're going to hustle is not because I want to get into professional selling hustle is not where you get the margin.

[00:13:45] Oren Klaff: That's not where you get the opportunity. That is additive. You can all like how more so than, you can there's, you can always do one more thing. And then one more thing and one more thing. So those are the people who are go home and then doing a little bit more and a little bit more in a little bit more and that's hustle, but hustle is not, there are a lot of people.

[00:14:03] Oren Klaff: With great businesses that are using their smarts, their capability leveraging intellectual property, building a brand. And they're actually, coming in to nine and going in at five and have a great business and a very good venture capitalist friend of mine said, I love to come in my car companies and I want to see my CEO's not running around going desk to desk doing their own coding and having meeting after meeting and not even lunch.

[00:14:26] Oren Klaff: I want to see my CEO. Sitting up with his feet on the desk, staring out the window, pondering the imponderables.

[00:14:35] Jeb Blount: So exactly the conversation we were having with these leaders this morning is that you've got to create margin in your day to think because the. The most valued stability in a modern leader is the ability to predict the future.

[00:14:48] Jeb Blount: And a lot of leaders don't get that. Like they think it's growing, people are developing people know it's your ability to see over the horizon and tell me what's going to happen. And whether, if you're a CEO, that's exactly what your, your board wants and your in your shareholders want. But even if you're a young manager, you've gotta be able to in your local market, see that if you're doing everything, if you're the chief problem solver of everything, then you're never going to be able to have the time to think, your job is to create vision. And I think with leaders, what we miss these days, and this is especially true with young leaders, it can, I and I would argue that we there's a little bit missing in leadership in terms of courage and holding people accountable. And there's a whole lot of, I need to do everything, but I want to be clear for people who are watching and listening.

[00:15:30] Jeb Blount: When we talk about hustle, Hustling and doing the wrong things like working really hard at the wrong things. You might be hustling, but you're not going to get anywhere. Like it's, you're just pushing a rope, but I've always said one of my greatest talents, I'm not the smartest person in the world.

[00:15:45] Jeb Blount: Certainly I'm not the best writer. I'm not the best speaker. I'm not the best trainer, but no one will ever

[00:15:51] Oren Klaff: on the show. I thought this was the best writer,

[00:15:53] Jeb Blount: Right? Nobody's ever going to out hustle me. I will out grind you every single day. And so no matter if you're faster, stronger, better, smarter, if you're richer, I will still beat you because while you're sitting around resting, I'm going to find a way now I don't work 24 hours a day, but when I need to, I will.

[00:16:11] Jeb Blount: And if I need to, if I need to get the next book or do the next thing I will, and I think that's what's missing. But I think that you're exactly right this exactly. I think people need to pay attention to that. What you said about, I want to come in and see my leaders thinking you need to be able to think you need to be able to consider if your life is so screwed up, that you've got to watch some asshole on YouTube who tells you that he's a billionaire and I'm going to make you rich or on Instagram.

[00:16:39] Jeb Blount: And you think to yourself, this is the person that is going to be my savior. If you're in that situation, this is a good indication that in your life. And I recognize that everybody has different circumstances, but in your life, you have no margin to think you are just living in desperation.

[00:16:56] Oren Klaff: So I agree in that guy is not going to be your savior Orin in Jeb.

[00:16:59] Oren Klaff: 1999. Okay. We got to get eventually to professional selling. And I think something that you said is the bridge into that, which is the person who knows what's going to happen. Next is the most valuable person in any organization. That is why, when I think about selling, and this is maybe as a leading question, but this is what I see everybody do wrong.

[00:17:24] Oren Klaff: And maybe you'll go Hey, I do that wrong too, but it's leading with change because the things are changing. And it's so easy today. Like back when I had this notion of everything has to revolve around change because then I will be the person who has studied, what's going to happen next. And I will know how things are shifting and what moves the client has to make.

[00:17:49] Oren Klaff: To succeed in the next generation of the industry. If they don't believe that winners and losers, the position of winners and losers are shifting around in the next 90 days, then I have to do real selling. And that's too hard for me. I'm not smart enough. The, and today it's so easy, right? Because what is changing?

[00:18:09] Oren Klaff: Oh, I don't know. COVID real estate is changing the use of real estate, the communication protocols, crypto the dominance of China and Russia, the ability of them to turn off our entire, energy network, at any time of the Lofa loss of a scan of Stan the, obviously the politicization of the entire country politization.

[00:18:28] Oren Klaff: The vaccines the taking the vaccines COVID is COVID the flu disinformation and misinformation. The, the rise of Trump, which, even on that side, you know, people who benefit from the rise of Trump and really liked the Trump by, we have a 78 or 780 year old president.

[00:18:44] Oren Klaff: And so everything's changed and then it's trickled down to industry. So there isn't an industry you work in, even the plastic Santa's industry that hasn't gone, undergone dramatic change. So I think that's where I wish salespeople people would lead with. Yeah. I understand how you guys got here, but this game is changing in the next two quarters.

[00:19:06] Oren Klaff: And the guys who were at the front are going to potentially slip a place or two, and that's a chance for you to move in. Let me break down my understanding. Of where things are going qualitatively, quantitatively and if we get agreement, there's no one who knows this, cyber security better than I do.

[00:19:30] Oren Klaff: And let's drill down into where you could be at the start of next year, if you make the right moves. So I feel like that's where salespeople miss. The mark is a go into where the best with the best logos we worked with Microsoft. As opposed to all the pieces are shifting around, Queen's pawn to King's Rook for check.

[00:19:54] Jeb Blount: I think you're actually right. I'm, it's funny, you said that because to me that's all cells. This is a chess board, that's it? It's just a big chess board. And and I operate and on a strategy, our chess board that's called MLP motivation, leverage and power. And so every single thing that I'm doing in sales is focused on those three things.

[00:20:12] Jeb Blount: It's neutralizing. So all I'm doing in power is drive from alternative. So if a buyer has a lot of alternatives, they have more power. If they have less alternative, less power and same thing with salespeople and those salespeople, if we're all honest with ourselves, walk into most deals a weaker power position than the buyer, either psychologically or in real life.

[00:20:31] Jeb Blount: So just think about that, right? All I'm trying to do in the chess board is look ahead and say, okay, what am I doing that is neutralizing power? And I've got to run through a chess board or a process to get there. Motivation is individualized. It's nonlinear. It is how people feel about me. And you talk a lot in your book about frame.

[00:20:48] Jeb Blount: So you're using these different frames. One of those frames is likability to people like me. So people are motivated to do business with me because we know that the way the human brain works is really simple. We feel than we think it's just that simple. It's just biology. So if

[00:21:03] Oren Klaff: I just want.

[00:21:04] Oren Klaff: Okay. So because you're going through stuff that I think is so critical, what I'd like you to highlight. If you're listening to this is neutralize power. Buyers have alternatives and that has changed. I think we're agreeing to

[00:21:20] Jeb Blount: They have lots of, they have lots of, and one of the alternatives is do nothing one often our do it themselves.

[00:21:23] Jeb Blount: And you talked about all these changes that are happening in the world. And in a lot of cases, people are myopic, right? And salespeople are mine, but the people you're dealing with are myopic and they don't really understand all of these things are happening. So for example, with cybersecurity security, for example, I've got a client of mine who this is the business that they're in and they're dealing with CIOs and CFOs and CEOs, and they're a little bit blind to the things that could happen to them.

[00:21:47] Jeb Blount: So they think, we're good. Or we can do this on our own, or we have a IT team that can manage this. And there are enough horror stories out there of the people who thought we can handle this ourselves here, hold my beer. I'll do cybersecurity. So what we're doing is neutralizing that at the same time, I want people to want to do business with me because this is the great neutralizer, right?

[00:22:09] Jeb Blount: And every single stakeholder, all the people in the deal, they have their own list of things that are important to this. I'll just call this a stakeholder list. It's really simple thing to call it. And so I want to understand what their motivation is. Some of that motivation is personal, right? Some of it's fear, some of it's opportunity, some of it's aspiration, whatever it is, what I want to get them motivated to work with me.

[00:22:29] Jeb Blount: Me personally. And if my company and my brand are part of that's cool, but I really want them to work with me. Cause I, I just want buyers. If they tell me no, I want it to hurt them. Like I want them to be in pain to tell,

[00:22:40] Oren Klaff: So now we're really, I just want to unpack this and go a little bit more slowly because I don't think our mandate here is to take somebody, from zero to hero in an hour.

[00:22:49] Oren Klaff: I want to focus on this. Now you have this wonderful Southern accent. You're from Georgia, you have this, cadence and you're handsome, but for us other losers, w we may not have that like instant charisma. So this situation, you go into a CIO, they have an installed cybersecurity vendor, and you guys are coming in and saying Hey, I'd like you to consider our solution.

[00:23:13] Oren Klaff: And so what is the first, OKR or goalposts away point that you're trying to get to in terms of really getting their focus on you and, getting a chance at the account and limiting their options.

[00:23:32] Jeb Blount: This is the chess board. Okay. So let's just look at the chess board. So NLP in the middle of this as leverage.

[00:23:38] Jeb Blount: So just bear with me for a moment. And by the way, I'm a complete introvert and nobody likes me. So there's no charisma here whatsoever. This is just sales. It's just a chess board. So if you just think about that, if you let's say you have a cybersecurity organization and they already have a solution in place number one is you have to get in the door.

[00:23:55] Jeb Blount: So you have to ask yourself if they let me in. Because if they're completely happy and if what they're doing is completely working for them, then why did they let me in? Now you could say, because I'm just really good at prospect. And I get people to meet with me and I am good at that. I'm, I can get people to meet with me, but I'm also have a lot of self-interest.

[00:24:14] Jeb Blount: I don't want to meet with people if there's nothing there. So I don't want to waste my time doing that. So I'm not having meetings for the sake of having meetings. So they let me in, and I wouldn't say, let me in, because I want you to consider my solution. That's not how I'm getting the meeting. I'm getting the meeting because I have.

[00:24:29] Jeb Blount: I have something of value, either insight, value, tangible value, or emotional value for them to meet with me. So for example, if you're running a cyber, if you've got a cybersecurity security solution and an adjacent company in your industry, just say God a ransomware attack that shut the whole organization down, my pitch might be, what happened to them?

[00:24:51] Jeb Blount: I've got a solution that will at least do an audit for you to show you what's happening in your business. And I thought it might be a good idea for us to get together, to at least take a look at whether or not that might be a good fit for you enough. Once I get in the door, now, all bets are off and this is where I use leverage.

[00:25:07] Jeb Blount: Okay. So if you think about that situation, the power that the buyer has is the alternative is I don't have to do anything. Like I can just keep doing what I'm doing. I'm not broken. I haven't had a ransomware attack nothing's gotten in and oh, by the way, switching out, one for the other. That's awful.

[00:25:22] Jeb Blount: Now, if what

[00:25:22] Oren Klaff: I don't love. I don't love audit, for leverage,

[00:25:25] Jeb Blount: I'm just making, I'm just making shit up. Okay.

[00:25:29] Oren Klaff: Really? Really I'm just worried. The Jeb said it do an audit.

[00:25:34] Jeb Blount: It's just my clients who do that. That's what they do. They know that they're there. They have a they do an audit, but the point is that you got in the door, they let you in.

[00:25:42] Jeb Blount: Okay. If they let you in. There's something there's always something there always. And it could be that their vendors taking them for granted. It could be any of those things now, even better is you say this, you say we should get together because what I do compliments what you're already doing and makes it better.

[00:25:59] Jeb Blount: That's an even better way to get in, but not always. Is that okay? Like you talked to Anthony about about displacement selling in some cases, the only way that I'm going to get in is the current vendor loses and our winner

[00:26:12] Oren Klaff: Ernst and young for tax the tax organization. There's nothing we can do to compliment Ernst and young, but

[00:26:17] Jeb Blount: sometimes I can, sometimes it's not an audience.

[00:26:20] Jeb Blount: Sometimes it's a business solution, semantics, but I'm in now, here's the thing. When I'm in the buyer, because they have a stronger power position than me. They want to dictate how the process goes.

[00:26:34] Oren Klaff: Correct. , so they'll say how they want to buy.

[00:26:37] Jeb Blount: Yeah. So they're going to say, and this is this, and now you want to talk about a mistake that's happening right now is that there are more ironic, more ironic.

[00:26:45] Jeb Blount: Sales trainers who are telling people there's buyer 2.0, when we need to sell buyers the way they want to buy. And I'm telling you that is complete bullshit. It is absolute, total bullshit. And I'll normally say things like that, but it is because if you sell the way buyers want to buy, you are going to lose.

[00:27:06] Jeb Blount: And if you would get the deal, you're going to lose even more because you're going to come in and you're going to drop your pants in order to get the deal. This is chess. Chess says that I need to bend the buyer back to my sales process. And the only way that a weaker party can do that is through leverage.

[00:27:23] Jeb Blount: And the greatest leverage you have is information. And in a lot of cases, your pricing, like they want to see your pricing. They want to see that. So if you get an RFP situation, we just simply say, we're not going to, we're not going to respond to the RFP until you meet with us. And if they say we won't meet with you, then we're out.

[00:27:38] Jeb Blount: Cause we know we have no shot at this deal, but if they say we really want to see your prices. If you want to see my cards, here's the price you have to pay. So when you start thinking about that, what I start doing is saying that the very first meeting, what I'd like to do is just learn a little bit more about you to see if there's even a fit here.

[00:27:55] Jeb Blount: Gets you talking, right? If I get you to talk and you like me, cause it makes you feel important. And the most insatiable human need is the need to feel like you matter. So if I'm listening to you feel good about me and then I'm listening to you and then you're telling me your story. And it all I do at that point, it's just build a bridge or I call them a value bridge.

[00:28:13] Jeb Blount: You call whatever you want to. I just build a bridge from what you told me to why we should meet again, using your language. Not mine. It feels like I'm like you. So I'm basically from the very beginning, trying to answer five core questions for every buyer and every situation the bar just wants to know, do I like you?

[00:28:29] Jeb Blount: I just want to be likable. Like you said, I'm Southern. I got this draw. I dress nice, get my hair right. But do I like you? Do you listen to me? Do you make me feel significant? Do you make me feel like you matter? Do you get me? Like you understand me, those viable relationship in your life is someone who understands you.

[00:28:44] Jeb Blount: Do you understand me? And do I trust and believe you that the very first time we meet, you're probably not going to trust and believe me, but I just need you to trust me enough to give me the next meeting. So now the next meeting would be. Thinking about what are the questions I'm going to ask? What do I need you to step through?

[00:28:59] Jeb Blount: What hurdle do I need to step through? You said something earlier now. And I think we probably missed it. It was brilliant. And it was you didn't say these words, but I want to make sure that the stakeholders in the deal are matching my effort. So along the way, I'm compelling them to engage

[00:29:16] Oren Klaff: Yeah, and I'll give you my, my, my version of that.

[00:29:18] Oren Klaff: And I just come over and say, Jeb, stop that. I'm not going to work harder on your deal, on your problem than you will. I'll fix it. I fixed it a thousand times or I won't, but I'm not gonna do it for you. I'll do it with you. Yes. Why did I write? I don't own a billion dollar company. I have no equity in it.

[00:29:37] Oren Klaff: I might buy a couple of shares. This is a hundred million dollar step up for you and I'm going to make $75,000 maybe. Okay. So I'll work on this to some degree. But with the motivation, you have the ops that you have, the result that you have. And why would you ask me to work harder in your company than you will.

[00:30:00] Jeb Blount: And this, by the way is something we talk about young salespeople, people are new to it that the disruptive emotion of eagerness, like I, I want to be, they want to be liked. Like I just, I, I said this a couple of times, the most insatiable human need is the need to be, to feel important.

[00:30:13] Jeb Blount: Feel like you matter to the young sales person, they want to be validated. And they're dealing with someone like you and me who are a lot older than them in a lot of cases. So they feel like I want to be validated. I want people to like me and so through their eagerness, and I don't think they're doing this because of anything else.

[00:30:29] Jeb Blount: And sometimes it's desperation because they got an empty pipeline, but then their eagerness, they start doing all the work for the buyer. So the buyer doesn't have to do anything they chase. And the crazy thing about chasing is that people have a really funny way of running from people who chase them.

[00:30:41] Jeb Blount: So they don't understand how to use a takeaway, how to leverage takeaways, to pull people in. And that would be in your vernacular, a frame that gets a person to lean in. They don't understand how to leverage non complimentary behavior. And nor that I, when I was 23, 24 years old, I had a master getting Bob Blackwell who really taught me like in sales conversations, how do you manage that?

[00:31:05] Jeb Blount: But the one thing that he taught me, by the way, as we start thinking about this I need to move to the next step, move to the next step, move to the next step. What he taught me. And this goes back to predicting the future is that when you get into a big deal, you start at the end and you work your way backwards.

[00:31:21] Jeb Blount: And so what a lot of salespeople do, the salespeople who fail in big complex deals as they start at the beginning, and then whatever the next step is happening. Organic from that, what I do is start at the very end, where do I want to be? And then I'd try to figure out at what point in the middle do they make the decision for me?

[00:31:37] Jeb Blount: Because I don't want to close a deal. I want the deal to close itself. That doesn't mean I'm not going to ask for the deal. It doesn't mean that I'm not going to say sign here, but I want the emotional close to happen at someplace in the middle. And what you'll find, if you start breaking down complex sales processes is that there's usually this pivot point someplace in the middle.

[00:31:57] Jeb Blount: For example, when I was in industrial sales, if I could get them to do a plant tour. In other words, take me through the manufacturing plant and walk with me. My probability, my wind probability, after a tour went up to about 75%. I've got a client of mine who does a physical demo, where people come in and look at the machine, their close rate, after a person gets up and comes in is 90%.

[00:32:20] Oren Klaff: But what I want to go back. Cause I agree with that. So I want to go back to this getting, taking the power. Out of, cause I think you hit on a couple of really interesting sub subjects, but I do feel buyers come in the control position. We have lots of options. You said, sir, and I will hold you accountable for this.

[00:32:40] Oren Klaff: No, but you said, and I agree with is buyers coming with lots of options to the degree, you can take those options away and limit their options through mental frames or perception that now you've taken their power away and now at least in my vernacular, you raise the stakes. So this decision really matters.

[00:33:03] Oren Klaff: So when I, the leading question is in what do people get wrong? Change status and low stakes. I think I hear you saying the same thing in a different way, but you take away their options. Raise the stakes that the wrong decision could turn them from a winner into a loser. And now we come up to a fork in the road and it's set up correctly and now you don't have to do anything and fall asleep.

[00:33:28] Jeb Blount: If you think about that, so let's take, let's just take what you said about raising the stakes of making a mistake. So if we think about that, that goes in our motivation column, actually more than it goes into the power column, because each individual stakeholder, if you're in a complex deal, you're typically dealing with multiple people.

[00:33:43] Jeb Blount: Not every person is at the same positional state in that array. But those individuals have fears and they have emotions and they have aspirations as well. And so when you start looking at the stakeholder list and this means, and this is a big mistake that salespeople make, and this is not new salespeople, this is everywhere is that they don't take the time to get to know all the stakeholders at that level.

[00:34:08] Jeb Blount: We just want a seven figure deal. And so a big training deal, and there were 27 stakeholder. 27. Yeah, we met with each of them. We were the only company that did that. And not all of them had a lot of say a few of them had a lot of say, but by getting to understand them, then we understood exactly what you said.

[00:34:28] Jeb Blount: There were some fear that if we don't do this, we got a problem. And so now we're layering that in, as we're having conversations with them, we're layering that in and we're helping to reshape what the organization is. So you think you start thinking about the stakes, right? So if you look at a big deal, you've got stakeholder criteria and you've got evaluation criteria.

[00:34:47] Jeb Blount: So evaluation criteria that is at the enterprise level power is at the enterprise level. Motivation is at the individual level. There is a collision there don't get me wrong and one can shape the up.

[00:34:58] Oren Klaff: Take what you said. Go back down to the 21 year old, right? Who's going to have trouble processing through their mano celled, Instagram, Gary Vaynerchuk, motivation hustle, brain.

[00:35:10] Oren Klaff: I think it's pretty clear that you've got to find all the decision makers, but what is something that Joe bag of donuts sales guy, not one of your crackerjack leaders, but the guys, I get that. So they know enough to say, Hey, who's the decision makers here. Who's all the how what's a real methodology that they can expose who the decision makers are.

[00:35:33] Oren Klaff: The final contract is going to signing it's John DocuSign and then go, oh, I got to ask this a CEO level decision. Oh, I the CFO has to sign off on this. Oh my partner who you never heard of before Lochness monster, who I only meet with once every three months, has got to look at this.

[00:35:52] Oren Klaff: They're very smart. How do, how can somebody get inside the organization the way you do without your sophistication and figure out who those decision makers are and map them. So they don't pop up at the end as the stall point.

[00:36:09] Jeb Blount: We'll just be clear. I was born on a dirt road, a red dirt road and the country in Georgia.

[00:36:15] Jeb Blount: And I still live in the country. So there's no sophistication here. This is just chess. It's just a game. And and that's all just to me, it's all, it's a process. So the first thing is don't ask people who the decision maker is because as soon as you do that, you put them in a bad position, a little thing called cognitive dissonance.

[00:36:33] Jeb Blount: Just pay attention to this for a second. Okay. Cause this doesn't take a lot of brain power. Cognitive dissonance is the inability for a human being to hold two opposing values in their brain at the same time without experiencing mental stress. It's really simple. If you ever tell someone you're going to do something and then you don't do it, you probably feel bad unless you're a sociopath, that's called cognitive dissonance.

[00:36:55] Jeb Blount: So if I go to aura and say, Oren, are you the decision maker? If he tells me no, then he says, I'm no longer significant. That doesn't feel good because Oren as a human being feels like he is a significant person. So I put him in an untenable situation where he's forced to lie to me. And because he's forced a lot of me and I'm afraid of rejection, I'm willing to accept the lie in the moment until I get to the end.

[00:37:20] Jeb Blount: And I find out that's not the truth, but he didn't mean to lie to me. I just put in that position.

[00:37:24] Oren Klaff: They're lying to you.

[00:37:27] Jeb Blount: I don't have a clue. How do I know? I'm not, I'm not a lot detector. If I ask them when they're a decision maker and they say, yes, I am what I'm going to go.

[00:37:32] Jeb Blount: Nine times out of 10, the person who, Do that. So what I'm going to say is instead of putting up, I'm just talking about human beings, right? This is just people. If I put a person position, put a person in that position, there's a high probability that they're going to say yes. When the answer is no.

[00:37:51] Oren Klaff: Okay.

[00:37:52] Oren Klaff: You can only decision maker will know, it's me and the vice president of finance.

[00:37:57] Jeb Blount: I would never asked anybody that question. What I would say is walk me through the process that your organization goes through to evaluate vendors in this situation. When you made a decision about this the last time, could you tell me how you did that?

[00:38:13] Jeb Blount: There probably are some other people that are going to be interested in giving us an opinion about buying a product like this, or working with a vendor like me. Tell me a little bit about the other people. Notice how I asked that question. I'm assuming, tell me a little about, a little bit about the other people who are going to be working with you.

[00:38:33] Jeb Blount: To evaluate whether or not you want to work with me by doing that, I let them off the hook. And at the same time I'm able to listen now, am I still gonna get BS? Yeah. Am I still gonna get people walking me around the Bush? Yeah, but I'm also going to pull out what I call seekers, right? Seekers are where sales dreams go to die.

[00:38:52] Jeb Blount: So the person's just getting information for the boss and then I'm going to spend a lot of my time doing that. They're not willing to match my effort. I'll find that out. I'll see it.

[00:39:01] Oren Klaff: Can I just slow you down on this? How does Joe bag of donuts?

[00:39:07] Oren Klaff: Identify a seeker in your mind. So somebody who's been sent out who looks pretty sophisticated, but really they've been sent out to collect proposals.

[00:39:16] Jeb Blount: Really? So an easiest thing we'll talk about, we're talking about complex, but a transactional deal, the phone ring. So typically seekers are coming into you, right?

[00:39:23] Jeb Blount: They're not, they're inbound leads. They're coming in through a web form. They're picking up the phone and calling you and they'll say something like in the speaking business, you get paid to speak, they call up and they go, Hey, we've got a conference coming up. We want to know how much Jeff calls.

[00:39:36] Jeb Blount: That happens. And so our salespeople are trained to say tell us a little bit about this and what's going on. And and we'll feel out what's happening. And most of the time, if we get them talking, because the more people talk, the more they'll reveal and and we're listening to them, make them feel good.

[00:39:50] Jeb Blount: We get a little bit of sort of a self-disclosure loop going on in their brains, a little frame. You can put people in and they start telling us, and they'll say, yeah I'm gathering all the information from my boss. And then we'll see. Sounds good. Let's get your team together so we can learn about you because we don't even know if Jeff has a fit again, we're using a takeaway frame, to pull them in because we're saying we're not going to chase you. And if they go no. I'm just gathering information. I'm taking to the boss. We're out. We're we're we disengage, we walk away because man, I have, we have run ourselves up on that wall a million times. We're just not doing it.

[00:40:23] Jeb Blount: Not only a transactional deal. So if it's if you're calling in and the person says, yeah, we were downloading this thing, cause we're thinking of it. You go great. Let's get your team together. And they go no, I'm just gathering information. I'll take it to the team. And then once I get it to the team, I'll let you know.

[00:40:37] Jeb Blount: If you're a salesperson you got to say, listen, the only way I'm going to be able to give you information. Is to learn a little bit more about you because I got a lot of information. And the last thing I want to do is completely overwhelm you and your team. So why don't we get together? I'll learn about you and then I'll tailor a package just for you.

[00:40:55] Jeb Blount: If you still get the I'm just gathering information, just send it to me, move on. Just go someplace else. There's plenty of places. You can go. The salespeople who chase, stuff like that are the people who have nothing in their pipeline. They're empty and they're desperate.

[00:41:07] Oren Klaff: Let's complicate the situation a little bit.

[00:41:09] Oren Klaff: So let's move it up. Enterprise deal. It's a little bit higher stakes. There you've exchanged information. You've had meetings, you don't quite have the contract yet. It's circulating internally. You're not a hundred percent clear, you know who the absolute rubber stamp, final rubber stampers are.

[00:41:25] Oren Klaff: You have a good sense of it. Of course the CEO can always just go, we're doing it, but that guy's a little bit inaccessible. You need the other people on board. You have a sense that the lawyers are still want to come in and torpedo everything and they still have to be dealt with. So it's a little bit messy and your mid deal, but there's a million dollars at stake and they start asking you for stuff, so they're not moving forward, but they're asking you to produce things that take work on your side. I think that will be very helpful for, because the overarching thing, the word talking about is, and I really like your book on objections is not having those objections come up and framing people early.

[00:42:07] Oren Klaff: Get rid of all this stuff. So there's no last minute stall. So the situation is again you're mid deal. Now you've invested in the deal. You want the deal as good as you are, as good as I am. We're acting a little bit needy because that's the way life goes. We're investing, we've got time in it, energy in it, money in it.

[00:42:25] Oren Klaff: And maybe somebody traveled, which it's on our pipeline. It's in our proforma. It's a big enough deal that, it adds to the revenue cycle and throughput, we want this deal, but all of a sudden they're asking us for stuff, but not moving forward themselves.

[00:42:43] Jeb Blount: Okay. So first of all, say to that, so look, that's really complex and there's not a single answer for this question.

[00:42:50] Jeb Blount: So let's begin with a basic thing. Something called the universal law of need. The more you need the deal, the more likely you will lose the deal just straight up and. If you get the deal, the more you will be willing to give away in order to get the deal. So if you're in a situation like that and you feel desperation to close the deal, like you got that talk and that usually starts with this, you go to the boss and say to the boss, we have to do this, or we're not going to get the deal, or you're saying it to yourself.

[00:43:20] Jeb Blount: In that case, you need to take a hard look at why you need this deal so badly, because

[00:43:25] Oren Klaff: Pause there. I got Daniel looking at my shoulder and Jab looking over Daniel's shoulder and go and get her done. Get her done, son. Let's get her done. And then I'm getting the neediness is from the back pressure.

[00:43:38] Oren Klaff: I'm getting from my organization. I'm starting to get requests that I know are unreasonable, but I'm as a sales guy getting squeezed from both directions.

[00:43:48] Jeb Blount: If, listen, I go again. I go back to look at your desperation. If that desperation is created, because you have an empty pipeline, then you're going to have to manage those disruptive emotions in a sea of desperation that you're not going to be able to fix if the pressure's coming from your own organization.

[00:44:05] Jeb Blount: And I've been there, like you've got the boss says, look, we've got a forecast. We need to hit the forecast in that situation. By the way, as a salesperson, suddenly you've got to leverage if my boss is going, look, you need to close the deal. I'm going to the Boston going, okay, give me something to close the deal with because I can close the deal.

[00:44:22] Jeb Blount: If you're a, if you're in a mid cycle and enterprise level deal and they want to do business with me, w we're we have to assume the situation that it's not like this, not pipe dreams. They're, they've got an incumbent vendor they're really happy with, and it's one of those sharpen your pencil type of deals.

[00:44:36] Jeb Blount: This is, we're just talking about everybody in earnest wants to work together. And the buyers, the stakeholder group, whether it's purchasing or whatever, it starts to ask you to give them some free consulting or to start working on things. We see that happen all the time. There's no sow in place. There's no contract in place.

[00:44:51] Jeb Blount: We still got to deal with lawyers. You may have IP issues, that type of thing. So we know that's happening, but it's boss is saying, Jeb, you need to get this deal done by the end of the quarter 10, I'm going to say it, turning the Boston, go. What do I have? What can you give me that I'm able to use as leverage?

[00:45:06] Jeb Blount: So if they come to me and say, I want you to do some work for me, then I'm able to go. I'm willing to do this work, but I want this from you. But if you can do this for me, I can do this over here. So if I'm the sales person now, I don't know if a 23 year old smart enough to get this, but I know that I am.

[00:45:21] Jeb Blount: If I'm getting pressured. Then the deal for me is I'm collecting the commission check. So if the company wants me to close the deal and they say whatever it takes to get the deal done, I'm going to do my very best to protect the company's interests. But I'm also going to do what my boss asked me to do.

[00:45:36] Jeb Blount: Now let's take the next step up. Okay. So we're getting pressure from the company. We got a little pressure from our. Let's just take, we've been working on this thing for a year and it means something to us. We've got relationships with the stakeholders and we liked them and they like us and those relationships with gotten personal.

[00:45:52] Jeb Blount: And this is what happens probably more often than not. And there's a lot of contracting that has to be done. We got procurement over here. We've got lawyers over there. We've got our lawyers, we've got their lawyers. And the truth is in a lot of enterprise deals. You're probably not going to talk to the CEO.

[00:46:08] Jeb Blount: So somebody is going to make a decision out there on this thing. You may not even ever talk to the person who ultimately says, we're willing to sign regardless. They come to you and say, Hey, we're getting in a hurry. Like we need to get this done. And this happens a lot in my world. That happens a lot. I had a really big company we're working with, and this is exactly what happened.

[00:46:26] Jeb Blount: There. Go we're in a lot of pressure on our side to go ahead and get some of this done. We don't get a contract. Now guess what? I got power. I have power, right? Because they're coming to me and asking me for something. And I recognize that the, it's not what they want. It's urgency. Now I'm able to compress time and if I can compress time, I can win.

[00:46:47] Jeb Blount: And so what happens at that point is I'm shifting from a selling motion to a negotiation motion. So I'm moving into, okay, we're closing this deal. Like I'm going to accelerate the whole thing. I'm going to start saying, you want me to do these things. I need to get a commitment from you. Now here's the thing at an enterprise deal.

[00:47:06] Jeb Blount: You're going to get a commitment from the stakeholders. They're going to say, yes, I want to do this. And then they're going to immediately hand you off to a procurement group. And they're going to say, we need these things, go to them. And the procurement group is going to go do this. They're going to go, whoa, slower.

[00:47:19] Jeb Blount: They're going to say, listen, Orrin, here's the thing. And they're going to do this by email, by the way, there's not going to be any communication and they're going to go, I need you to sharpen your pencil. Cause all your competitors are coming in. They're willing to do this less than you now, you know the truth.

[00:47:31] Jeb Blount: I'm already got the relationship with the, with these folks. And they've already said, I want to do business with you. Go back to motivation. I want to do business with you. So they're doing all this stuff. And so I just tell the procurement group. My competitors are probably willing to do all those things.

[00:47:44] Jeb Blount: I'm giving you my best, but the best thing I can give you. So here's what I think we should do. Let's get back together with the stakeholder group and let's figure out what we can take out of this thing so we can meet your budget and the things that I'm going to take out of the things they're asking me to do that.

[00:47:58] Jeb Blount: I want you to do this, and this. So now I'm in a negotiating triangle and I'm going to win every single time because the stakeholder group, they need this done. The procurement group is slowing it down, but they need it done because they got time. Pressure, time pressure is different than any other type of pressure.

[00:48:12] Jeb Blount: They got to get it done and their self-interest is getting it done. And that's when the decision-maker will reveal themselves.

[00:48:20] Oren Klaff: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:48:21] Jeb Blount: Because at some point right there, I'm going to say I can't get anything done because procurement and this happened just recently to me, this is like the story, a senior vice president.

[00:48:31] Jeb Blount: I got a phone call that said we can't get this thing done because procurement's in the way, 24 hours later, a contract got signed. I never met the senior vice president. All I knew was the stakeholders had made a decision for me, motivation, leverage and power. It's just a chess board. And once they made the decision for me, The procurement was just, they were just in the way and all I do, because I'm not desperate.

[00:48:53] Jeb Blount: Because I'm able to manage that emotion. Cause I know how people work and I know that you know how to do this too. It's just a frame. All I did was leverage a takeaway. I'm not playing the game. I'm not chasing you. I'm not doing any of those things. This sounds pretty good. Let's get these people on the telephone and figure out what we can take out in order to meet your budget.

[00:49:12] Oren Klaff: And I like it a lot. I like that a lot. In some people's deals are like, sir, aren't things you can take out. So like tax strategy, right? Or we're going to take out, We're gonna, we're gonna take out part of this tech strategy. That's difficult, but what I'll find like my equivalent to that is that I gotta take I'm in the CEO will say, I'm in.

[00:49:33] Oren Klaff: We want to hire you guys. We love you. You're better than Goldman Sachs. You're better than Houlihan Lokey. We're going to go with you guys, but I got to go present it to the board. Can you come present to the board? Which is, I think it's not quite procurement, but it is a very difficult situation because the board will always say, it looks like a good option.

[00:49:51] Oren Klaff: Go find me some other options. So I can take a look, right?

[00:49:55] Jeb Blount: The ultimate naysayer group, right? The board's job is to say, no, not say yes, that's their job, right? So when you're sending from the board, you're sending in front a whole group of people that are aligned with the CEO and their job is to keep the CEO out of jail simple.

[00:50:08] Oren Klaff: So in that situation, it's a little bit different than procurement. I say, look, you cannot come and dump your problems off on my doorstep. I'm giving your problems back. You get to own your own problems. The board, I never met the board. You never told me on day one that I got to deal with the board, right?

[00:50:25] Oren Klaff: I presented to a lot of boards, but the, for this deal, this size, I'm not going to chase it. Here's what I suggest. And then I teach them how to go around the board, right? The board does it. They don't really care. They just want control over you. They don't care about this. It's not a big enough.

[00:50:42] Oren Klaff: They trust you on this. They just don't want you making decisions. Outside of them, sign the contract, do the deal we go forward. Otherwise I'm out right involved with the board. This is not a good enough deal for me to chase to that degree. We'll give you a seven day kill switch, go tell the board you signed us up.

[00:51:02] Oren Klaff: You're happy with us. Let them aggressively opt out and convince you why we're not the right people, because most likely they're just going to go, oh, I love those guys. Fuck it. Good job. Keep going. Yeah.

[00:51:14] Jeb Blount: If you just think about that, that, that scenario, first of all, Joe Schmo is not going to do this, but this is really smart if you think about it.

[00:51:19] Jeb Blount: Okay. So number one, we go back to motivation. You can only do that in situations where the CEO really wants to do business with you, and I'm talking about you. Like they, they like you. So there's, if they didn't like you and they just let your service or product, they're probably going to go to the board because they're not willing to put themselves in the line if they don't have the relationships.

[00:51:38] Jeb Blount: So the relationship matters there. Again, one of the things that there's a lot of morons out there teaching people that relationships don't matter, but they do. So if you think about that was important. The other thing that you did was you said I'm willing to walk, like I'm willing to walk away.

[00:51:50] Jeb Blount: So this is the most powerful. The most powerful technique or in your words, frame and sales is to take away when you are willing to walk away, people will lean into that. People will want you more. And I've even told people, like I like, I wouldn't like when people would tell, say, I'm really happy. I can look anytime you're happy.

[00:52:07] Jeb Blount: You should never think about changing. And then I could change if I wanted to. So it's just reactive. It's so easy. So you say I'm willing to walk away now you've got them in both sides, they really want you, and they don't like to lose and you're dealing with a CEO and CEOs freaking hate to lose.

[00:52:22] Jeb Blount: And then right. You de-risk it you say, listen,

[00:52:26] Oren Klaff: I love it. I think also, you're so sophisticated. You say you're not, and that you just listen to country music black on a dirt road, go find, say I showed it back.

[00:52:34] Jeb Blount: I just said, I grew up on a dirt road, red dirt road in Georgia, rural Georgia

[00:52:39] Oren Klaff: Sing me country music songs.

[00:52:41] Oren Klaff: So how soon in your mind. Do you do a takeaway? And I have a V ask a question because I have a very specific view on takeaways, but I'd love to w I don't want to set you up. You can hear me.

[00:52:53] Jeb Blount: No. I typically do a takeaway from the very get-go so

[00:52:56] Oren Klaff: And go, but that's a Southern word that we're in California.

[00:52:59] Oren Klaff: We don't know what it means.

[00:53:00] Jeb Blount: Listen, I did two tours of duty in California, so I know California, so I'm so from the very beginning so when I sit down with someone, so if you think about the sales motion, w let's just take, let's forget about enterprise level deals, right? Let's talk about what Joe Schmo is going to be working on every single day.

[00:53:17] Jeb Blount: Three to five close are three to five visit clothes. So on the very first call, the initial sales visit, I only have two objectives. My objective number one is to just make sure that they're fully qualified and I'm willing to spend more time with them. And number two, typically that means I'm not dealing with assholes, right?

[00:53:33] Jeb Blount: I just, I walk away from people I don't want to do business with. So are they qualified and to create enough interest, to compel them, to want to spend more time with me really simple stuff. And the only reason they're going to spend time with me is for their reason, not mine. So I just want to find out their reasons why I ask questions and then tell them the things that they just told me.

[00:53:49] Jeb Blount: And they go, wow, you're in my head. I've even had people say that. It sounds like you're right in my head. I'm like, yeah, I'm repeating the things that you just told me. So in the very beginning, I'll just do a simple set up like this. I'll say Oren, thank you so much for your time of day again. I'll use my Southern gentlemen.

[00:54:01] Jeb Blount: I'll go. I'm just, I'm so grateful that you. Took time to spend with me. What I want to make sure is we still have 20 minutes and you say yes. Okay. So all I'm doing is I'm just getting you to begin to step into agreeing with me. Now, this is not a tie down situation. I'm just making sure, because once you say yes to me, you're pretty much compelled to keep that commitment.

[00:54:22] Jeb Blount: So if I say, do we still have an hour? You say, yes, I know in the middle of it, you're not checking out. Then I'll say my core objective of the day is really to find out a little bit more about how you and your team do these things. And from there, if it makes sense for us and listen, it doesn't always make sense because we're not the right fit for everyone.

[00:54:39] Jeb Blount: Then we can talk about the next one. Is there anything you want to put on the agenda and then you usually say no, and I'll say he'll be okay with you. What I'd like to do is start with a few questions so I can understand you a little bit better. Then we can talk a little bit about me. And then from there, if it makes sense, we can decide together to move to the next step.

[00:54:55] Jeb Blount: The takeaway was in the middle. When I said, we're not the right fit for everyone. It's very subtle, right? It's a really subtle, but you can watch body language in that moment, because as soon as you say it, they'll just lean forward just a little bit every once in a while, they'll go, what do you mean?

[00:55:09] Jeb Blount: I'm not the right fit for you, but that didn't happen often. So I began using the takeaway just a little bit all the time, but even a non-competent behavior. Like you come at me and go, listen, I just got to make sure your prices aren't too high and not just relax and lean back in my chair and just write it down.

[00:55:28] Jeb Blount: Is there anything else, even that is a takeaway because I didn't give them what they wanted, which was a. So many years, so

[00:55:36] Oren Klaff: yeah, criticize me two things, but they say, Hey prices too high. I go, yeah, they are is more than you want to pay and less than we want to charge for sure. But, I don't know.

[00:55:46] Oren Klaff: We, do this, like we, how are you different from the other guys? Or we're not different. We're exactly the same. Like you can find, you go to Newport beach, swing a cat around five times and find nine investment bankers and they'll do exact same thing. We do. The only difference I would say is that we actually get it done, but we all do the same thing.

[00:56:03] Oren Klaff: Like it's investment banking. What the fuck do you think it is? It's not a tea party. That's what we all do. And there's only three ways to do it. The only difference is some people actually get it done and other people charge and languish and it never happens. But you got to decide that

[00:56:28] Oren Klaff: So I will do something as early as after hello, which is Hey, like I'm going to a fishermen and you guys are like that lobster at 0.9, nine, nine pounds. And I'm trying to figure out, do I keep it or do I throw it back in? And I like have a very short period of time to figure out if we're right for each other.

[00:57:03] Oren Klaff: And as most the same language,

[00:57:06] Oren Klaff: we're not always a good fit for

[00:57:08] Oren Klaff: interviewing me, which is great. You guys want to find the right person most of the time. I'm interviewing you because we don't have this problem. Like I do this we fix this problem all the time. You have the problem. I just need to figure out like how far down the road to hell you guys are.

[00:57:25] Oren Klaff: And if I can willing to invest my time and money to bring you back to the winter position.

[00:57:31] Jeb Blount: Yeah. It's just, it's a language thing. I, if someone says, are you different? I go the thing is that most companies in our world are exactly the same. So they got a box. They've put you in the box and you had to fit in whatever box.

[00:57:43] Jeb Blount: The thing that makes us different is that we build the box around you, but I don't even know if you're a good fit for me. So the first thing I have to do is figure out whether or not it's even worth taking the time to build the box. And that's your time and my time. So I need to ask you some questions.

[00:57:55] Jeb Blount: So I learn a little bit more, learn a little bit more about you. And then from there, you and I can make a decision together, whether or not it even makes sense for us to move forward. Your prices are too high. And I like what you said. I go, I think acknowledging, you're right. Our prices are really high.

[00:58:09] Jeb Blount: And the words that you use. Would probably serve you really well in New York city, they might not serve you very well and, Des Moines, Iowa. So I think, I think we have to we've always got a shift to the audience. I think that what you're gifted at aura and what you're really good at, and I think people need to pay attention to this is, even though you're doing that stick with me, I think that you're probably really good at sensing the person responding appropriately

[00:58:34] Oren Klaff: podcasts with jail.

[00:58:35] Oren Klaff: Trust me, I'm super tough aim on the Parker. I'll take you out. I brought you into this world. I'll take you out. Or you know what, watch this. You're so tough. How do you like that? But when I'm with a little old lady billionaire, that's trying to hire us and I'm going to make $5 million.

[00:58:47] Oren Klaff: Yes ma'am. Would you like some tea I'm ordering T w no, not too much sugar. Okay. Yes. What kind of 2%. Please get 'em lady Ning. 2% milk fair. Yeah. So yes. Great. You will have to be sensitive. Just it happens to be the world that I live in. Maybe a little bit more than B2B enterprise is super alpha dogs.

[00:59:07] Oren Klaff: Even if it's female, male, they, them other pronouns it

[00:59:12] Jeb Blount: But the takeaway works with everybody. Like it just, the worst change and it shifts and it can be like, it can be an in your face takeaway and I'll use it. Like I've got a CEO. Who's cause I'll get people on.

[00:59:23] Jeb Blount: Usually after my sales teams run through something, I'll have people on and they'll do a direct challenge. And like I had a CEO said, I need you to close me on this. And I said, I'm not closing you off. This is a lot of work for you. And a lot of work for me, what you and your team really need to do is go back and decide whether or not you really want to do that.

[00:59:41] Jeb Blount: And call me when you're ready.

[00:59:44] Oren Klaff: I just want to take out the highlighter and listen to you because you're saying some stuff that is just so fundamental when somebody says your price is too high. Agree. When somebody says you need to close me. No, that's not what I do. You close yourself, right? When somebody says, Hey Ryan, up the elevator, Hey, in one minute tell me about your deal.

[01:00:03] Oren Klaff: What did you tell me about your deal in one minute? Let me see a demonstration of how that's done in a one minute. Like I'm happy to do it in 15 minutes, but if you're that unreasonable. So I think what Jeff is saying is when somebody is unreasonable, just tell your truth and Hey, no, that's weird that's.

[01:00:24] Oren Klaff: Paint somebody's behavior. Yeah. Call it what it is. If you internalize that, it's weird to say that's weird. I don't understand what you're asking me. Why would you want me to lower my prices and then deliver you the best product? Is that what you do?

[01:00:40] Jeb Blount: Yeah. I love what you said again. We're having a love Fest here, but the, when someone's unreasonable and that's what I try to teach young people.

[01:00:48] Jeb Blount: If someone's being reasonable with me, my stance, the way that I'm working with them changes, I shifted. I can deal with reasonable. If someone is being unreasonable, for example, I've just met you. I'm opening up the conversation I'm in sales. My job is to learn about you not pitch you. You don't want it to be a pitch.

[01:01:06] Jeb Blount: Do you want me to listen to you? I'm going to, I'm going to pitch you, but I'm just going to tell you back what you told me. It's if the person says, listen, I'm not talking to you and tell me what your prices are. That is unreasonable. So in unreasonable situation you have to match that.

[01:01:21] Jeb Blount: But the way you do it as an non-cognitive, I disagree with you. It sounds really good. I wouldn't talk to me either until I know the prices. And then I always say thing is I can't tell you prices until I learned about you. So it sounds like we're at an impasse. How should we work together now? Or like when people will go look, I can't do that.

[01:01:36] Jeb Blount: I said if I'm not able to do that for you, how can we still work together? My favorite question, I dropped that on the table and just shut up. And then they have to like, they have to reframe the entire situation. Now they own it. They go but we know somebody that did go, I only want Jeff working on our doing the speech.

[01:01:54] Jeb Blount: Cause I've got a bunch of different speakers, but this is my budget. So this is the only thing I'm going to do. If we can't do that, how can we still work together? If they say we can't, then it's really easy. Thank you. Click, move on to the next thing, but almost always. They reframe it. They go we'll, if we could do that and guess what?

[01:02:12] Jeb Blount: Now they're being reasonable. If people are willing to work with you are reasonable. So I love that you said that because most people, I am in fact very few people in sales use that term reasonable. And if you said, can you define reasonable or unreasonable? I go, no, but I know it. And I think, you know it, and I think most people know it.

[01:02:30] Jeb Blount: The problem is we go back to desperation. If I'm, if I'm desperate or I'm too eager, or I can't manage my disruptive emotion of insecurity and the process, because I have no framework on which to work, because I don't want to, I don't understand a process or I'm just I'm winging it as we go along.

[01:02:47] Jeb Blount: Then what happens is unreasonable takes the power, right? And now you're dancing.

[01:02:52] Oren Klaff: I one of my I worked for a billionaire is one of my first jobs. I think I wrote about it on Wilshire Boulevard, right next to rodeo drive 84 year old billionaire, very difficult thing. But one thing I learned from him is when people were unreasonable, he didn't like to fight with him.

[01:03:05] Oren Klaff: He would hang up on himself like, oh yeah, that's really interesting. I'm very, and then he would hang up while he was talking because he didn't like to, get in arguments with people. And I think, people we don't get a lot of issues on pricing. If we think of how in B2B sales, an enterprise sales, you would, but I think it's totally fair to say, our prices are a lot if you're buying a cyber security software for your enterprise, the way the government buys toilets for a national park I don't even know what to do, but this costs a lot let's figure out what you need and and go from there.

[01:03:35] Oren Klaff: So that's that, then that leads into the last thing I want to hit. Okay. I try not to ask questions because I feel like people feel they're getting painted into a corner. It may be that in the spaces we're in the questions are more cornering feeling or the information like when we ask questions, we have to ask questions about the balance sheet, about the income statement, about revenue, about the org chart, about growth, about competition, and about deep IP and things that are feel pretty invasive.

[01:04:09] Oren Klaff: And so is there anything wrong in your mind? And I feel like we know a lot about, of our counts when we go to meet with them. So I just go, Hey, tell me what's going on with you. I'm trying to figure out those are the things that I've observed. This is what I'm seeing from the exterior. This is what typically happens with this kind of company, this size, this pace, this momentum it feels like you guys are having a, a tough time here and getting struggling in this area.

[01:04:35] Oren Klaff: But tell me what's going on with.

[01:04:36] Jeb Blount: I think that, I think it's completely reasonable. I think one of the big mistakes that we make around discovery and asking questions is we treat it like an interrogation. So it's like you put the mirror, put the light in front of them and go, what's your balance sheet look like.

[01:04:48] Jeb Blount: And they're like, oh, what you're describing is how do we trigger something called the self-disclosure loop? And all the self-disclosure loop is science. Like this is biology. So you can actually

[01:04:59] Oren Klaff: Everybody here. Cause this is very, I know this is just stuff you roll through with your team, your leadership team, but my big dummies.

[01:05:07] Oren Klaff: Really would love this. This is to me, really fundamental. Good.

[01:05:10] Jeb Blount: It's science I'll let me, I'll tell you what, let me tell you a story because I'm Southern and then I'll explain how it works. So I had a guy called me up and actually came to me through Facebook and said, I want to hire you to come speak to my team.

[01:05:22] Jeb Blount: And it was a day where I didn't have a salesperson on it. It was a Saturday. So I reached out and said, here's my phone number? Can we talk? And he gives me on and he goes, how much do you cost? How much does it cost to hire you? And I said listen, I'm not really a great fit for everyone. So before we even talk about that, I was wondering, cause it was a nonprofit.

[01:05:38] Jeb Blount: I was wondering if you could tell me, how did you even get involved with this nonprofit? And so he spends about 45 minutes telling me the story of how he was in this big accident and he was incapacitated. And if it hadn't been for this particular nonprofit, that he wouldn't have been able to get back to running his business, he was an entrepreneur or business person and I listened and listened.

[01:05:57] Jeb Blount: And when he finished, like he told me everything like everything about what they were trying to do. I have one question like that was it. And at the end he said, he goes, listen, this is how much we have. Will you take it? Like we went from, how much do you cost to? Will you take our money? And it was more by the way than I would have asked for.

[01:06:14] Oren Klaff: A million percent. And by the way, this is how I bought seven cars. Yep. Is ask people, tell me about how you got into this. What's your story. And then, I'm off on bring a trailer. I own a car and the stories.

[01:06:26] Jeb Blount: Exactly. So let me explain the science. If you were to watch what was happening to this person's brain on a 3d MRI, what you would have seen is the pleasure centers of the brain lighting up like a Christmas tree.

[01:06:41] Jeb Blount: Every time the person told me more about themselves and you've been here, I've been there. You've all been in a party, right? You've been someplace where a person's talking to you and maybe you're just in the mood to listen. They're talking, and then there's this moment where they cross the TMI zone.

[01:06:58] Jeb Blount: And suddenly you're like, holy crap. I can't believe they just told me that

[01:07:03] Oren Klaff: you liked that. Okay.

[01:07:04] Oren Klaff: This I don't like you breaking down my personality in that. Okay.

[01:07:08] Jeb Blount: But it's their brain, by the way they said to themselves, I can't believe I just said that, but they couldn't help it. And they kept talking. And by the way, you've done the same thing too.

[01:07:17] Jeb Blount: You've been on a date or what have you, and you just talk and talk and you talk yourself right out of the deal, right? So here's what happened. This loop is simply a dopamine hit, right? All it is I call it brain crack, right? You're the brain is on drugs. It's no different than if you were drinking a lot.

[01:07:31] Jeb Blount: When you drink a lot, you lose all your inhibitions and you just start saying stuff you would never say to anybody else. The same thing happens when you're triggering the self-disclosure loop. When someone talks and you listen, they get a dopamine, hit drugs to the pleasure center of the brain, which causes them to want to reveal more.

[01:07:47] Jeb Blount: And the more you listen, the more you let the loop run, the more they're going to tell you, and they just keep going and going, and you just need to stay out of the way. And one of the ways we get into ways we step on it, right? We want to tell our own story. We want to feel important. We have a hard time, allowing them to tell their story, their silence.

[01:08:02] Jeb Blount: It makes us feel bad. So we jump on the silence, but if you just let them go. No go. And I bet in your situation, or you say what's going on around here and they talk and they tell you all this surface stuff, right? Because they don't really want to tell you what's really happening because it hurts to tell you the truth.

[01:08:16] Jeb Blount: But then there's this moment where they finished telling you the surface stuff. And then there's just this break of silence. And all you got to do is sit there. Usually it's account to around three to five, sometimes a little bit longer, but you don't say anything. And the very next thing they tell you is everything you wanted to know.

[01:08:31] Jeb Blount: They get you all below the surface. And that's really the trick of discovery. The game is ask as few questions as possible to gather as much information as possible and just make those questions really easy. If someone comes to me, I go, what you got going on? You came to me, you had something going on.

[01:08:49] Oren Klaff: I feel if somebody has listened this far, put this in a box, take a capture of the screen, tattoo this on your arm. The questions need to be fucking nice. Invasive simple. This is not but the doctor this morning and they hand me a form, and this form has to be for women. And it's, and they had, women's like body parts.

[01:09:10] Oren Klaff: I'm like, show me where it hurts. I'm like, I don't have this equipment. So it's like the perfect metaphor. Don't hand the guy, I go through the form of 45 questions that you need in order to then set and especially don't, hand them photos of female body parts if they're men.

[01:09:29] Oren Klaff: But I think, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's just easy. Questions need to be so simple and you also need to take some risks. I feel like, Hey, look, this is. I talked to you one time, I did a little more research, there's too much stuff online, not trying to, go too far, too fast, but this is what I'm seeing.

[01:09:49] Oren Klaff: And if you guys are producing this much revenue at this low margin at this pace, compared to what Microsoft is doing, barely trained in the market, it just feels like you don't have your sales tech stack organized. And there's a lot of room to go there. And probably, I'm looking online, you don't have a CTO listed.

[01:10:04] Oren Klaff: I just feel like there's a big hole in the organization. What's going on with you guys.

[01:10:08] Jeb Blount: So let's break that down for a second. Cause this is important. So we go back to the original question. What's wrong with young salespeople. It's not a generational thing. She's young salespeople. They just don't. I didn't know how to deal with people.

[01:10:17] Jeb Blount: Someone taught me. So what you basically said is you need to test things, right? You've got to poke a little bit back in world war one. There was a general that was in UK teaching people how to use a a bayonet. And he basically says, you poke until you find something soft. And what young salespeople will find is they'll ask a question like that and the person goes, you don't have any problem.

[01:10:36] Jeb Blount: And then they feel shut down, would go back to rejection. They feel like they got rejected. So they go back to staying above the surface, what you do and what I do is go, okay. And then we ask the next question. The person is, they just said, I don't have a problem there. So you move on. They don't really care what they're talking about.

[01:10:51] Jeb Blount: As long as they're talking. So you go to the next thing, another way that you can take risks in the conversation is listening with your eyes. What are you seeing, listening with your ears? What are you hearing, listening with your intuition or your heart, right? So you're listening with all of yourself and when you ask questions and they're talking it and maybe, they're just revealing something, but you see something emotional there.

[01:11:15] Jeb Blount: Like you, even if you perceive it, ask a question about that, let them finish, but go, Oren, you were telling me about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sounds like that may be something that's bothering you. Shut up. They may go. No, and I was wrong, but sometimes they go, yeah. And all you saw was that, and I don't need to send you to a body language course to figure that out.

[01:11:37] Jeb Blount: You know how to tell if someone is exhibiting emotion, you learn how to do that in the crib. You just have to be aware. So what I notice in young salespeople and inexperienced salespeople is I'm watching and I'm like, oh my God, like that was a neon freaking sign. There's something there. And the sales person is so focused on the next question that they're going to ask.

[01:11:58] Jeb Blount: That, that interrogation question that they missed this cloud that came over the person when they were talking about this. But it's risky because again, you might hit a, you might hit a hard place versus a soft place and they go, no, but this goes back to, managing your disruptive emotions, being in control, understanding the chess board and understanding people like you feel like they didn't answer your question.

[01:12:22] Jeb Blount: They don't even remember. People don't care what story they're telling, as long as they're telling their story. So you can control the conversation any way you want to just by asking the right questions. And sometimes the best question in the world to ask is how so are how, and I'm from the south, so I asked how come a lot. I go, how come? Just like that, put a little bit of juke on it. And and then people would just talk and talk and talk and talk.

[01:12:47] Oren Klaff: I'll tell you and then here's a perfect example. We would get the wrap on time here, but I find for men, if you ask them about their sons, it's not quite the same with men and the daughters, not quite the same women and their daughters, but there's, this is just one just way into the center of somebody's universe.

[01:13:06] Oren Klaff: For men, if you ask them about their sons, get, sit back and get ready. And so on that note, tell us about your family. I'm very interested to hear about

[01:13:16] Jeb Blount: I've a wonderful family. My wife is the CFO of our far very successful company and. I work with my wife. I've known my wife since high school.

[01:13:24] Jeb Blount: So we I met her when she was 14 years old. Cause that's how we do it in Georgia. And and my son is 23 years old going on 24 and and got, got his first chance on stage at the outbound conference and, really rocked it. And he's got a lot of talent. He's young, he's 23 years old, he's learning and, suffering from the same thing.

[01:13:43] Jeb Blount: A lot of people suffer from, he gets into deals and there's pricing and you don't want the conflict, but he's a killer. Like he'll prospect, anybody open up any door and it's it's that's my family, I got five dogs and eight horses when but it's

[01:13:59] Oren Klaff: what we do. And his off time when he's not working sports or. Hobbies.

[01:14:04] Jeb Blount: Yeah. He's riding horses and playing golf and hanging out at the lake and just doing the things that kids do. How about you or, and how about your family?

[01:14:12] Oren Klaff: My camera died. We've had it on for too long. It would get mad. Let me just reset it. Hey, Corey, you mind trying to reset this camera while I'm talking?

[01:14:21] Oren Klaff: So if you unplug it or turn it on and off and try and make, it's just unhappy. So I have a little boy he's seven and he's a hockey player. And I love to tell this story. Some people have heard it, some people haven't chorus, just getting the camera back,

[01:14:36] Jeb Blount: women. Let's stop for a second. You accuse me of being young, right?

[01:14:39] Jeb Blount: You call me 35 and my son's 23 and you got a seven year old. So what I make, what? 24?

[01:14:46] Oren Klaff: Yeah. Yeah. We're late in life. But my wife and I married late in life. We got we were both, I think I was 45 when we got up. At least 43. So have a little boy. We have one boy. So we have all us for him like you, and he plays hockey, play soccer and he races cars.

[01:15:02] Oren Klaff: So he's seven years old and he's a car racer, took their place in a recent competition in Northern California. So we have him, doing quite a lot, but I will just tell you something interesting that I'd like to a story I like to tell about my son is that he's not a beautiful hockey player.

[01:15:16] Oren Klaff: He just he's on the ice 10 hours a week, which means 30 hours of going back and forward to the ice. Everybody's here. Groaning. They've heard this story before but I think it's interesting. So my wife is from Belize, which, I don't think it has a ton of, Nobel prizes in sports management now.

[01:15:35] Oren Klaff: And so she just takes him to hockey and he's. The CR the C team with the scrubs, but I don't want him on the C team. Cause that's where you get injured. Cause we were grabbing each other and they're not skating well, one I'm on the B team. So we have him on the treadmill. We have him on the ice, 10, 12 hours a week, right back there.

[01:15:50] Oren Klaff: I build an ice rink for him. It's a synthetic ice, and so I'm doing everything I do because I just want him to get on a beat team. And he gets on the scrubs, San Diego, but bad news bears of hockey, but at least, the C the B minus team, but I just haven't working and he loves it.

[01:16:08] Oren Klaff: He's on the treadmill. He's going on the ice he's back here. He goes to bed early, he's eating kale. And in, in Southern California, San Diego, you fight for ice time. It's not like a baseball field. That's always there. There's a practice for the San Diego goals, a team in his age group and his group.

[01:16:26] Oren Klaff: I said, just take him there. And she's no, it's going to be embarrassing. He's just, he's on the bad news bears. He's gonna be skating around with the best kids in San Diego, but it's fucking nice time. The kid needs ice. And so reluctantly, she takes him to cause they'll let you do the tryout and just take the ice time, tell him to grin and bear it.

[01:16:43] Oren Klaff: He's a tough kid. Not really, but so when he skates and they pick him up fifth draft for the San Diego goals, a team, and to me, that's more motivation and that's more hustle than anything on his Instagram, which is just keeping your nose down, grinding when and being happy on the team you're on.

[01:17:06] Oren Klaff: And, eventually people will recognize a quality. You have, you don't have to tell people how good you are. You just be good. And in the society we have in the culture we have and the opportunities we have, people will recognize talent like your son. My boy is a little bit young to be called talented, but anyway, thank you for listening.

[01:17:28] Oren Klaff: And it just goes to the,

[01:17:29] Jeb Blount: It's a great story. A great lesson. I think it's I think it ties right back into how you started the podcast off there's there's a lot of wisdom in that.

[01:17:38] Oren Klaff: Thank you for being here with me. Very you to share your time. You're at the highest level of this game, these insights, and the ones I tried to highlight are just so powerful.

[01:17:48] Oren Klaff: We touch on a lot of stuff because w I think w both come to space of wanting to help people who don't fully understand how all the pieces work together, but they do work together. There are people know how they work together, get involved with jab or myself or people. You like stay away from internet, billionaires, and you'll do well.

[01:18:08] Oren Klaff: Jeff, thank you so much for being here. I'm just Dana's gonna end the podcast, but if you can stay around for one minute, maybe we can swap information and you touch

[01:18:16] Jeb Blount: Sounds good.

[01:18:20] Oren Klaff: If you're planning to become a dealmaker at this level, make sure to join the daily dealmaker. We get into one little piece of this daily. And so you're just stacking and stacking these tools and tactics and strategies until they come out of you as naturally as they come out of me and the people that I work with, add the tips, tools, strategies, tactics a little bit every day.

[01:18:40] Oren Klaff: And by the end of a year, you'll be a totally different new improved person and a very strong dealmaker. Okay.