[00:00:00] Oren Klaff: Okay. That's cool. Great. Hey, good morning. Good afternoon. I'm Oren. Klaff. This is the maker show familiar with me for my book pitch. Anything. We try and find some people to bring to this show who are very interesting in and of themselves. I have a great guest, Dave. I don't know if he's great. He looks. He looks great.

And you're going to be shocked. He's wearing white t-shirt blew me away. No, but this guy we have on the show, the deal maker podcast, we have deal makers. And our, I really view Neil as a king maker. He can drive traffic. He can decide whether you live or die with your website, the king maker. And so I want to talk to him about web traffic, about sales, about deals and about life and really the culture we're in.

What's wrong with it. What's right with it. And what are the opportunities next for marketers in whatever kind of product you're in. So I'd like to introduce Neil Patel, Neil, welcome to the dealmaker show. Thank you for being here. I know you're busy and stuff. Thank you just for having me really appreciate it.

[00:01:08] Neil Patel: I know you're busy as well, so thank you for having me.

[00:01:11] Oren Klaff: Yeah. You appreciate it now, but our enemy God damn it. I know not to. I know not to say during those shows. All right. So listen for the one person that's not familiar with you, you are just one of the top 10 marketers, one of the number one, marketers, just, how to drive traffic through various mystical processes.

And so at the bottom layer, I think people get SEO and that is your expertise, right? By the way, if you're not familiar with Neil, just go to his website is Neil patel.com. Was that? Yeah. Yeah. So what happens, you're not going to learn a lot of stuff there, but here's what you will experience there.

You will go to their website and you'll be inside of a brand and you'll just be like tumbling. Through this rabbit hole and like your email, which sucked out of you and he'd be sign up and then you'd be in content that's engaging and then you'll be a customer and you will just not see that to me is really like what marketing funnels are today is you're tumbling down the cyber wormhole and you don't even feel, you can't see the mechanics happening.

So what is the difference in your mind having done? I have so many questions for you, but in a site like yours, where you just go to it and what are the mechanics happening where you just feel yourself subsumed in the desire to learn and get stuff. I just feel like I'm getting stuff for myself.

I don't care what I'm giving up. Cause my give is so much smaller than what I feel like I'm getting. And then I'm just in your wormhole. How did you make that happen?

[00:02:49] Neil Patel: So the key that always loves saying is. With good marketing. You may look at good marketing campaigns. You're like, oh wow. That's memorable.

That's amazing. That looks cool. Great marketing doesn't seem like marketing at all. And that's the key you want to market and you want to market so well that it doesn't seem like marketing. That's how you succeed. So I'm going to give you examples of this. If you go to Neil patel.com, you'll find there, a lot of blog content that just educates even video content that educates and teaches you how to do different marketing tactics, whether it's SEO or social media or digital marketing, it doesn't matter.

We teach it all. And there's also a lot of tools. So we'll have, opt-ins like, Hey, do you want to just go to the newsletter? Hey, you're reading all this information. Do you want my team to just help you and do it for you? And people click on consulting. And often from there. Hey, you want to see what's wrong with your website and what you need to do to get more traffic.

Sure. Putting your up, and it'll tell you all these things that are wrong. Oh, by the way, do you want to just fix it for you put in your information, schedule a call with one of our sales reps, right? So we do a lot of stuff that provides value and writes so much value that you have no issue giving us your information to schedule a call with our sales team.

That's the key, because then it doesn't feel like marketing.

[00:04:03] Oren Klaff: Yeah. I think there's a misunderstanding today of what value is if you go back to your stuff and by the way, for those of you who are familiar with Neil and a lot of peoples, we've seen this announced and they'd be like, yeah, Neil's just very cool, calm and collected.

He just going to give you the digital version of all the answers, try not to get him riled up. He's gonna be drinking water. There's not going to be vodka in that bottle. So don't worry. I went back through some of your older material, way back to 2018. This guy right here is a standup comedian as good.

Maybe doesn't have a 40 minute show, but he's got jokes. So we're gonna try and push him a little bit. It's out of his comfort zone from going. Yeah. If you do SEO marketing, traffic will come to your site and then you offer value. The, there's some SEO tools that you can get on our RCO thing and then you sign up and next thing you know, we'll market to you and we try and convert you.

No, we're not doing that, but we're gonna do that for a minute. So people are confused. People are confused is about value, right? So how do you view, what is it, how do you box in value? So if somebody goes we have a SAS software company and is what re w we sell accounting software that can dig into your accounting and trigger flag, anything.

It looks like it's audit bait. There's going to create audit, and we feel that the customers, and but so they come to you and they go, all right step one, we got an offer. W how what's the formula for value in your mind?

[00:05:29] Neil Patel: It's really simple. Let me ask you this question. If I was giving you this, a guide to turning on and off your iPhone, would you find that valuable?

No. You use a shit. I can turn off my iPhone whenever I want.

[00:05:41] Oren Klaff: Yeah. But my wife would find that valuable just wouldn't you know, but yeah, I understand.

[00:05:47] Neil Patel: And on the flip side, if I said, Hey, do you want this free, a 60 inch TV, heck you, in 40 inch TV, brand new out of vice. You'd be like, yeah, that sounds good.

Who would say no to that? Do they know that? I don't know what's wrong with you because worst case you can take that and resell it on eBay and make some money. The point I'm trying to get across is if someone would pay for it, it's valuable. And a great example of that is if you're taking that accounting SAS company, if you do some analysis on their QuickBooks or whatever it is, and you tell them what's wrong and people would have to pay an accountant to do that.

And your software whipped it up in five minutes. People were like, great Arne. You're amazing. Thank you. You just saved me some time and money and that's, what's a value. So anything people would normally pay for that, you can figure out how to give for free that's golden blog content. And everyone has blog content, YouTube content.

Everyone has YouTube content. Maybe you create it in a structured format, like a course where everyone can learn everything. They don't got to pay that 20, $50 on you to me, or a thousand dollars on someone selling a course. That's somewhat value. People will dig that or that tool that you're giving away for free that people normally have to pay a hundred dollars for that's value.

So you got to take it from that perspective.

[00:07:01] Oren Klaff: Okay. Thank you very much for being here. This has been a great program and I really like we have we've delivered value. Why should we do anything else? All right but there's more to get, I think the, you have a. That is very clearly identified.

And for some reason, I've just been talking a lot of brand new people. We're helping a branding company do sales. I want him to talk about sales and a little bit, but I've developed this thesis that a brand today is like the the re the reputation you have mass exposure, like the things you do, mass exposure with some good clean graphic design.

And there's your brand. Is there more really in your mind to branding the net you work.

[00:07:51] Neil Patel: There's tons more to it. The easiest answers as Jeff Bezos said, it's what people say or how they talk about you when you're not in the room or your company's not in the room,

[00:07:59] Oren Klaff: but that's fine. But how do you control that? Like your brand, did you make con who control what people say and think about you with your, with your, the fundamental tools, you have your fonts, your colors, your images and really be because if you're Lulu lemon, right? You're just think about it. Like your brand choices are so limited.

Did they develop a brand is a good example. Did they develop a brand or did they just go, Hey, we have hot. If we have hot pants, we're going to put attractive models in it. We're going to put attractive models in it. We're going to have him doing yoga. Okay. If we're going to have him doing yoga well, let's put them in a cool studio with bamboo and a water cooler and cucumber drinks.

And we're going to do that. Let's get some good fonts on there that don't look like Toon, cartoon fonts, right? Yeah. All right. Hey, if we're going to all this effort, let's get a real design firm to give it some, apple white space. Oh, we have a good brand. Like really? They, they couldn't put tractor trailers, like how much of a conscious decision could they really do?

They've got a avatar women before they went into men, women who work out and do yoga and want to be comfortable and want a higher fabric aesthetic than target or Walmart. There's just what brand choices do they get to make?

[00:09:13] Neil Patel: Yeah. What I see most companies do, this is not the answer you want to hear, but this is the reality for most people.

They ended up taking the approach of oh, let's just throw up a website, whatever color schemes, the designer, pigs, whatever logos or whatever we have or whatever competition is using something cool. That pick something around the web that they like and be like, I want to be like that. And they pop it up and go from there.

That's what I'm saying. Whoa. And you make more money and you start doing more sales you'll then have the attitude of, is my font easy to read. Do my colors really appeal to my target audience. Does my branding and identity, what do people really think when they look at our logo? Cartoony, do we have too much cartoony stuff going on?

Or do we want to be resembled as safe and secured an old school? More like an IBM. So people turn to us all the time.

[00:10:02] Oren Klaff: Not to cut you off, but you go ahead. We have some money. Let's interview some San Diego ad agencies. This one looks good. They, they did the site for a Purell and they did the site for Nike and they did some work for Adidas and they did some work for the NHL and whatever.

I liked these guys. Let's give them our brand and they come in with a couple of designs. You go, I like this one. And boom, we, we have a brand like that's how. It happens. Is there more magic? I'm trying to find someone who goes through more magic than that.

[00:10:33] Neil Patel: Isn't, people will tell you about all these identity and brand books and perceptions.

I don't want to say branding's not important, but I will tell you this. I've seen so many people tweak their brands, spend hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars on it on logos and all that. And we've done AB tests on the conversions and then 99.9, 9% of the time I kid you not, it doesn't do crop to their revenue or their sales

[00:10:58] Oren Klaff: que you are amazing. Hold on a second. I like, I have been saying this for I'm talking to these, all these brand agencies and they're saying there's magic. The magic

[00:11:09] Neil Patel: where the imagined is where the magic is when your brand's memorable. And here's what I mean by that. People can identify the check mark in Nike.

It's unique. If they can remember your logo, your brand, what your company does, that's great. But you got to spend a shit ton on advertising. Excuse my language. Ton of money on advertising and marketing to have everyone know that Nike has just do it. And that they're letic that didn't happen overnight.

They've been around for ages, Phil and I started selling shoes in the trunk of his car. You know how many sports athletes are writing that check mark on their shoes or their jerseys. Everyone knows at Nike is now, but it wasn't that memorable of a brand. When they first started off, you spend money on advertising and marketing, right?

When you have a good product, then you'll have a brand, right?

[00:11:54] Oren Klaff: We meet so many companies who have a logo and they literally got it from logo monster. They licensed it for $8, or they owned it for $49 from logo monster, but it just has so much. Distribution and repetition that they turned it into brand.

[00:12:09] Neil Patel: So I, yes, here's the funniest part. Just like you mentioned the logo monster and stuff like that. When we first started creating our logo, it's just texts. It just says NP digital. You're like straight up. It's just texts. You pick a phone and be like, this is good. Throw it up on a website and then go from there.

People like it. Eventually you find tuna here and there, but I kid you, not every time we made changes to it, our sales don't go down, but they don't go up either. There's really no difference.

[00:12:34] Oren Klaff: Thank you.

[00:12:35] Neil Patel: And I would say there's caveats to it. If you're a Nike or Coca Cola or Pepsi shirt, maybe it can affect you negatively, but let's face it.

That's not 99.99%.

[00:12:48] Oren Klaff: Thank you, Neil. What's wrong with Instagram today? What's going on there? What's wrong with it?

[00:12:52] Neil Patel: What do you mean what's wrong with Instagram other than for B2B? It doesn't convert. B to C it converts well for D to C, but it's hard to get a lot of leads from Instagram because you can't get people on your side.

Instagram. Doesn't like you posting stuff that gets them on the site. Yeah. You can do swipe ups in your stories and you can end up doing links in your bio, but that's really it.

[00:13:13] Oren Klaff: Let me interpret that for the big dummies who hang around me. If you're selling a calendar of firemen with their shirt off holding puppies, then Instagram is magically, right?

[00:13:26] Neil Patel: Yes. You're selling Ty, you're selling t-shirts pants, clocks, head device that helps your posture makes you set up more, right? Like that all do well on Instagram probably should set up a little bit more now, but you get the point. It's like you want to go sell something to Oracle. You're not going to do well from Instagram.

You may from LinkedIn

[00:13:45] Oren Klaff: if you look at your stuff, it's very antiseptic. You don't dive into culture wars. I don't see much about your kids. I think you have kids, two kids, two kids. How, what are the ages?

[00:13:56] Neil Patel: Two and zero.

[00:13:58] Oren Klaff: Two and zero, right? Congratulations to your late in life with kids.

I'm as well. I have a seven year old. And so as you think about insert and so you don't do much culture, you don't jump into culture wars,

[00:14:11] Neil Patel: because we have people who are in charge of culture and stuff like that for office environment and stuff like that. But personally, no, I don't get, and I think what you're trying to say is I don't get too personal and like the Instagrams and the social networks, I'm just like, oh, check out my life.

And here's what's happening and look at it like every once on a post family pictures and stuff, but it's not me. And my personal life is my personal life. I try to keep it private. I'm not saying that's wrong or right. It's just.

[00:14:34] Oren Klaff: Let me throw something in front of you. I'm we, I've probably worked with 80,000 salespeople.

We do a lot of sales, development, revenue growth, going to a company. I know the product. Yeah. You working with us. Okay. I was telling other people not you. Okay.

[00:14:50] Neil Patel: So I have to say your stuff works. Our sales guys close more and close better because of it. So thank you. You too. Thanks.

[00:14:56] Oren Klaff: I appreciate you saying that. It does work. And so we do a lot of sales development. And so hear me out and I'd like to get your opinion, I'm developing this thesis and where things are going next because you can in sales and in marketing and in SEO and in technology and in web pages, stagnate on what's happening now and get caught.

It's very hard to shift into that. Cultural new, you can shift technology, you can shift in basic language, but if you get caught flat footed in the cultural nuances of web and sales and someone like click funnels is going to come, behind you and you go, what just happened? How is this a company?

Because if you took Russell Brunson goes down to Sandhill road and he goes to true ventures and Kleiner Perkins, and cross-link and walks up and they're like, who let this guy in here. I might just go ahead and build a $200 million company based on a technology called nothing.

Called it though. So you could get caught flat fee. And so I try and think about what's gonna happen next. I'm developing this thesis. I want to run by you. I think it's leftover from the 1950s or the IBM international business machine salesman goes into a Procter and gamble.

And he looks like everyone else, you, he gives the presentation on the IBM brand and sensibility and capability and product and the machine. And he leads, you don't know who he is. You don't know what he cares about. You don't know what his values are. You don't know what he does on the weekend.

You don't know if he has nine kids and he's a Orthodox Jew. You don't know if he's Comanche, Romanian and a Buddhist. And you literally, but I don't think it works today that you can disconnect the person from the. Product because we're, I feel like we're fracturing away from this. I am the corporate sales person for the corporation to deliver the value because the person is so much of the value today.

But I wanted to ask you about that. Would you let your sales people put more and more of them jetskiing of their kids, at K one go-karting of integrating their personality into the sales presentations to achieve differentiation and stronger relationship with the client, or do you just want them coming in IBM style talking about NP, digital.

[00:17:32] Neil Patel: I think it varies on your business. And here's what I mean by that. If you're dealing with the IBM's and the Cisco's of the world, They're more cookie cutter. Not cookie cutter, they're more professional business. If you're dealing with SMBs and people who are the ones that are signing checks to you, and you're not going through procurement and legal and all these divisions to get a contract and RPS, I think you need that personal touch.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the personal touch. I think it also can work if you're trying to close a Microsoft's and the IBM's and the Ciscos as well, but it's not really necessary for us, but I do think integrating some of those personal touches to the SMB market is really important because people want to jive with who they're working with.

It doesn't matter if they're paying for accounting, software services, people like giving money to people that they like, people hate giving money to pricks. Okay.

[00:18:22] Oren Klaff: But let me put some pressure on this. You have what I would call a non-needy organization as we're working with. You can, the Procter and gamble can come offer you a $600,000 account.

And there's some things about it. You don't like, and you just go pass. I'm not interested. But I don't know.

[00:18:38] Neil Patel: Probably not. We have 400 employees. We have a lot of expenses so we can provide results and we can do well for the client. We wouldn't want to pass

[00:18:47] Oren Klaff: but if let's say you can provide results, but they're providing signals that they're difficult to work with, that they do some weird accounting practices that you don't believe in and take it on.

[00:18:57] Neil Patel: It doesn't matter. We have the luxury to we get a lot of companies that hit us up that they have money. I just wouldn't work with them because I know my employees may have issues and I'm not saying we would or would not work with them, but I don't want to put people on my team in a place where they're working on stuff, they don't like.

[00:19:13] Oren Klaff: Oren Klaff big fat pipeline. Lots of people know him want to work with him. Luxury of being not needy, Neil Patel, lots of pipeline. If it drops off the first page of Google on your inbox, then the lead is gone. Cause another one is going to drop in. Not needy, maybe not a hundred percent accurate, but not needy at all and has the luxury of lots of pipeline, big brand, good traffic, great reputation. People want to work. And we say, no, another one will drop in an opportunity. What in your mind can companies do today to not signal neediness from the website, but also in person when they actually, feel like they need the account?

[00:19:54] Neil Patel: I like turning it. Here's what I mean by that. If you come to us, or we do cold outreach and go to. In many cases, people will think, Hey, you're pitching me. Let's say I do cold outreach. We have SDRs or BDRs, whatever you want to call them. That actually do cold outreach to companies and we're pitching them.

So no matter what, the moment they respond and they see that cold email, we come off as needy. I'm assuming you agree with that. But when we get on the phone with them, I like being very transparent and I try to turn the tables. Here's what I mean by that. I'd be like, look, Orrin. We analyze your site.

As you can see in the email, there's a lot of low-hanging fruit and we may go through a discovery call and ask you questions. Look, we'd love to potentially give your presentation, work with you. But first we need to make sure that we can. Hit your goals and provide you the results that you're looking for.

And we try to turn it around and more. So it's give us information, how can we help you? And then be like, let us analyze. And if we can do it, we'll come back to you and we'll work together. If we can't, we'll tell you'd be on your own way, but we're not here to just say, Hey, we're gonna give us your money.

Our big thing is, if we can help you and drive you more than what you're paying us, and we can make it profitable, who will work with you, if not, then we're not a right fit for you. And we don't want to work with you. And most people will come back and be like, yeah, that sounds good. Analyze my business.

Tell me how much more money you can make me, and then we'll do it. And then we'll break it down. And then a lot of people may say that's not in my budget and be like, that's fine, then don't do it. And they'd be like, wait, whoa. Can we negotiate? This is my cost, so I can't really go lower if you want me to go lower, I can, but I'm going to give you less and then you're not going to hit these results.

This is what it takes for you to hit these results, if you want it. Great. If not, I totally understand. I don't want to pitch you on something for a service. That's not going to get you the results that you're looking for. And I know what I need to charge to do it profitably with healthy, low margins.

So it's if you want to work together great, if not, I understand. Just keep going on the way with your business and have the charity that you have. But if you want faster growth, we're here.

[00:21:51] Oren Klaff: So thank you for saying that this isn't a webinar, but I would just like to point out to people. This is where you want to be Neil Patel flying around in a global express, petting his white baby tiger wearing black sunglasses, eating caviar with, Russian oligarchs discussing, how to buy or oil company on either side and they sculpture sculpturing a bust of him in gold.

And so that's where you want to be. So you can say things like that.

[00:22:15] Neil Patel: Yeah. Ideally, although I don't have the global express sadly did not even caviar. Don't have the tiger that I can cut a white baby tiger. Come on, baby tiger. I don't even have a dog.

[00:22:34] Oren Klaff: Okay. Let's go back in time, to Neil Patel, 2011, is that far enough back in time,

[00:22:41] Neil Patel: 10 years, that's a long time. And go for it. I'm imagining. How am I?

[00:22:46] Oren Klaff: So you're on the phone with trying to think, who would be good at that time? That would be a good get for you, probably Hugo's hot dogs in near the stadium, but let's give you some credit SanDisk, you get SanDisk,

[00:22:58] Neil Patel: there's still a big company and they came back then too.

[00:23:01] Oren Klaff: Yeah. And so they go, Hey, Neil we'd like your reputation in SEO. It does seem like you could help increase traffic to our site.

That is important to us. We're looking to grow, but it's just too expensive, the way that you've framed it out. But now this is 10 years ago, who needs the account? Who who wants it now? What happens.

[00:23:27] Neil Patel: If I don't really have any clients and I need the revenue, I make budget a little bit and I'll be like, look, let me see what we can do. This is tough. And if they give us some inclinations of what they want us to go down, I'll try to go a little bit, but not to whether they want. Cause you don't want to go all the way. You always want to try to get them to meet you halfway, but it would be a little bit flexible and I'll try to reduce scope.

And if they don't want me to, and I can still make the numbers work, I would take a deal and get a few deals to get where you want in life.

[00:23:56] Oren Klaff: No, that's shit. Don't do that. That I disagree with that you should call me back then in 2000 when you were looking at that SanDisk account back then, I feel like look, this is your interview, but I've, I feel like for me, I would say, Hey listen, totally understand, but you have Neil Patel on the phone, right?

What you need is Sam Smith. In our department, he's going to take care of you. So I push it down. You have that, he's brilliant at these accounts, he's going to take care of you. This pricing level works down there for a limited scope. And so rather than staying in conflict with them push it down to another person in your organization.

[00:24:34] Neil Patel: I agree with that either way. So if someone want to reduction in budget, whether it was 11 years ago, 15 years ago, my day one, when I first started, I was more flexible, but I still wouldn't give them what they wanted for that person. I would try to reduce it some way, whether I give them a cheaper account manager or whether I give them a lower scope or instead of weekly calls, I give them calls every other week.

And I'll try to present it in a way where it's like, Hey, you can still get what you want, but we just got to adjust how you, we get you there instead of just giving you what you want and everything. Because the moment you cave on every little thing, it's never ending. That's a slippery slope and it just does not stop

[00:25:16] Oren Klaff: fetch me another rock.

[00:25:17] Neil Patel: I'll tell you sometimes really what does happen. Yeah. Yes. No matter what, it doesn't matter where you are in your cycle. We would always adjust. I don't care if I'm day one or now, even now, sometimes when people try to negotiate, we'll see if we can actually negotiate with them, but we always try to adjust the. Or figure out how we can make it happen. That creates a win-win situation instead of a win lose situation. And that's a key, everyone's just like when they negotiate with you, as they deal with procurement, they just wanted a win, lose situation. We always make it where it's a win, win situation. And that is the key.

Or if he know that you're going to go and deal with the company, that's always going to negotiate, charge them way more on the entry because you know that they're going to negotiate. So that way, when you do negotiate them down, it's the normal price that you would have heard of it.

[00:26:02] Oren Klaff: Let me, can I post a comment on our own thing? Can I comment on our own podcast? If you're going into an enterprise, fortune 500 fortune, 2000 company, they have a very slow procurement cycle, right? So no matter what you do that, they're not going to chop you off. You can do the craziest weird things are going to stay in negotiation with you.

So if you anchor, huh? You don't really have the decision maker that can just say, Hey, we're not interested. They're still going to communicate with you and work with you anchor high, because they have a procurement process. The procurement process is really reverse negotiation there. Their only job is to reduce price from whatever you anchored it to beat you up.

That's how they enjoy life. Here's the best cure.

[00:27:00] Neil Patel: Okay. So I was dealing with a procurement. We deal with procurement a lot, and these people get compensated on how much money they end up saving the organization. So they won't hit the bonuses. And sometimes they just bullshit so hard that you can end up telling.

One of them came back to me pretty much quoting how there they got other quotes and they can do it for a fraction of the cost. Literally it was a fraction of the cost. I was like, all so I looked at the numbers. And I sat there on the phone with them and I was like, this isn't being around $20 an hour.

That's a good deal. If you believe that you can pay someone who's of our quality and you can get it done for $20 an hour and they can do amazing results, go for it. I don't know which, well-experienced person in this space would work for $20 an hour. You can go to indeed and go look for any jobs.

No one who has experienced would do it, but Hey, if you can get them to do it by all means, you should sign up with them. And then the procurement's yeah, we're going to go with them. And I'm like, yeah, go with them. Let's see what happens. And a lot of times they just bullshit and they don't have the offers and they come back and they sign with you because they never had that in the first place.

But they're like pulling these tricks all the time.

[00:28:08] Oren Klaff: Procurement is a real problem. There's a song by a rage against the machine and I would have to listen to it before I go into a big account where I knew you listen to music, you want music? What's your favorite sort of music.

[00:28:24] Neil Patel: Almost anything. I listened to pretty much everything, but I know rage against the machine.

[00:28:27] Oren Klaff: Yeah. So they have a song. I'm not going to sing it because I'm not a great singer, but, so I'd listen to over and the lyrics. I won't do what you told me. And that's not like they don't say it just once they say it that's the whole song, right?

Is it a hundred times in the song? And you've got to have electric guitar and just Sears in your mind. And I would have to listen to that song in which they say that line a hundred times over before I go into account where I knew that I would be needy and a lot of it is just in your own head.

If you could say no, that makes no sense. Why would we ever do that? Then you can, have some control.

[00:29:03] Neil Patel: Right earlier, you got an anchor high and that's a big people make with fortune 500 companies. You don't have to do that as much with S and BS and stuff like that. But with the large corporations, they got procurement. You better anchor high just because they're gonna try to beat you up

[00:29:19] Oren Klaff: for sure. And then if somebody says, Hey, we're collecting bids. And we're going through a process. We're going to the seven top firms seeing getting a scope of work, sending it up to committee, having to look at it, coming back around, getting to, a secondary level of the bake-off so we can get a top two and then have our CEO decide.

What's your reaction to that?

[00:29:40] Neil Patel: Sounds good. I know they're going to be more expensive than me, so I better anchor even higher.

Or I would use it like how I normally do with some wiggle room knowing procurement's going to beat me up. And my price is my price. It doesn't matter if you're dealing with one of the big guys I'm going to do my best present. I would show that we're more personal cause a bigger guys. Won't be able to show that and how you're getting a more personal experience and hands-on and how we take your account more serious.

And how with us, your accounts important to you, your account is important to us. With the other guys, you're just a number, on their board and they have tons of you. So they're not going to really put into the time and effort to really keep you happy, because if they lose you, they don't care what with us, we value your business.

So we're going to, we're going to really go above and beyond to satisfy you. But of course, I'm going to charge a premium for that as well.

[00:30:32] Oren Klaff: Fair enough. I would say come back later, if you don't find the right people.

[00:30:37] Neil Patel: That works too. Yeah. You and me. That's why we hired you. Yeah, I think there's, for me, won't always work for my reps.

My reps can't say that to someone like I can because of my brand and people already know I'm not rich, but I've done decently well where people know I don't need the money. When a sales rep, they know they're making commission on assessments a little bit different. And some of my advice is not translate to, let's say my sales reps, hence we work with people like you.

[00:31:07] Oren Klaff: Yeah. I think that's good. I think just so we don't scare people with going into a meeting with an air guitar and rage against the machine. I think the real tools are truthfully today is to say, Hey look that's how the government buys toilets, not how you get an agency to help drive the revenue growth for your firm over the next 12 quarters.

Okay. So if that's truly your process that you're looking for, the lowest priced vendor who says they'll do some branding and some SEO, then you guys, if you don't find, if you don't find there, the, the kinds of firms that participate in that process end up not being the firms that can actually do that work.

If you actually want this done, go get Ogilvy, go get publicists and bring us in. That's an actual comparison, not seven, nearly identical firms to compare and contrast and shave numbers and try and get us to do work for $7 an hour. I like that we can't comprehend what you're trying to do, and it's very weird,

[00:32:15] Neil Patel: but it's not that what people get wrong on this whole processes. Procurement in most cases does not decide which agency to go. They have a say, but it's typically the people that you're working with who have a much larger say, they're the ones who tell procurement. We want to work with this company, go figure it out. That's typically what happens. So what you need to do is wow, the people that you're working with on the presentation and your pitch, and look procurement may push back, but you can push back because, if you're one of the finalists or the finalists that they want to work with you, and when it's a big company with tons of profit, someone produces 10, 15, 20 billion a year in profit.

Does it really matter that much? Not so much in the grand scheme, as long as you're somewhat within budget. You're good. You just got a more so convinced a person who you're working with that you're the right choice. It's not about convincing procurement. It's about convincing the people you're working with.

[00:33:12] Oren Klaff: Yeah. I love it. I think that's absolutely correct. W since we have you, what's. Your style of doing blog posts of doing videos of presenting is to introduce some overarching, the Matic in what's happening in SEO. And then you produce numbers that th that, that plug into your theme and make the case for you that the directional moves you've taken are born out in the numbers and the numbers tell you what to do next, especially in SEO.

All right. Super compelling. I don't, you may have invented that style. Other people have adopted it. Maybe you took it from someone else and perfected. It was very good. So can you describe that to us? And then my, where I want to take this is what do you do if you're in a business that doesn't naturally have numbers to it?

So if you're a psychologist, for example, yeah, I get it style. And why you love it and then start be empathetic and sympathetic and feel sorry for the people who have businesses that just w want to be able to attract in your methodology, because it's so compelling, but they don't have the opportunity to pull in numbers the way you do.

[00:34:26] Neil Patel: Sure. So let's go over the number approach first. Yeah. I'm the big believer people, at least in B2B, they use data and numbers over emotions, more, not always the case, but data and numbers. Typically with the bigger the companies, the more that they're really into it. So my model is I can break down a topic and use any data to show, Hey, here's where you go.

And this is what the data's telling you. And these are the decisions you should make and why, instead of making decisions, based off your gut, you're making it based off the data, and it tends to produce better results. And then you have all these case studies and more data points that essentially. Now that's easy.

Anyone could do that. Here's the creative part. Let's say you're in a business that doesn't have the data, and let's say you're selling something that makes people feel good. Okay. Like one of my buddies is selling meditation rooms. It's called sanctuary meditation rooms within corporate offices.

So he has a deal with Blackstone for the Sears tower and a few others. You gotta pitch, Hey, you need this meditation room within your big skyscraper building. So that way people feel better. They can come to work. They're not going to be as stressed out in this chaotic world. So one, if I was creating content around that in pitch around that I would actually try to produce experience.

How can you show it if it's in content? How can you show that through storytelling? How can you make people feel what you're trying to, how can you get them to feel what you want them to? But over words, just like someone would be when they read a book. And then on the flip side, I will try to integrate not just stories, but videos and case studies and imagery and sound to really get people, to feel what you want them to feel.

[00:36:04] Oren Klaff: Yeah. So let me pull something out of that because we see a lot of pitches and when people find themselves in meditation, we've seen lots of that or dog food, strawberry flavor, dog food, or psych psychological services, or w personality audits. I'm trying to think, what water we have a company that just has this incredible bottle.

I don't know. You just want it there's no numbers.

[00:36:25] Neil Patel: Yeah, I agree. I bought Joaquina water the other day. I haven't bought it in a while. I was like, ah, cool. Volcano water, we'll order a hundred dollars worth from Amazon. Like I just thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread.

[00:36:37] Oren Klaff: Yeah. Not rich, but apparently you have a hundred dollars too much, but what I see these, I want you to come in the way I see companies do is they, they look at a Neil Patel video and they go, oh, and they try and translate meditation, dog food, Lifewater into numbers. And that's where it goes horribly wrong. So how, w how in your mind do people decide that they're one of those two paradigms, which is emotion and they shouldn't screw with numbers at all, or they shouldn't mess too much with emotion and they should try and drive from the logic flow.

[00:37:16] Neil Patel: So the easiest way to think about it. How can you make it where you talk to potential customers and existing customers and see what appeals to them. So I would start testing data approaches. I would test emotional approaches, see what resonates and that'll give you direction on which way you should go.

Funny enough, it's using a more of a data approach to come to that conclusion, but you'll know really quickly. Yeah. Storytelling when you're using storytelling, test it out on people. Just like when you have a sales pitch, it doesn't matter. Who's teaching themselves unless they actually practice and try different pitches out.

They won't know what's going to convert better. Sure. There's some best practices, but sometimes you just got to try stuff out and sometimes when you try it out, you have to give us some time because it may take you some time to get confident telling that story or that vision.

[00:38:02] Oren Klaff: I think it's so important that you can't just blend all pitching styles or all sales styles too.

You really have to figure out, are you a logic approach or are you an emotional approach? Just to call you out here a little bit. So you get, we introduce you to whoever Procter and gamble. They're probably already one of your, so how many of the fortune 500 do you already have as customers?

[00:38:23] Neil Patel: I don't know, but a good amount.

[00:38:25] Oren Klaff: Good amount. All right. So I introduced you to Procter and gamble. They ramp you up right up to the west coast president. And it's just, this is really a Neil Patel pitch. It's not, doesn't go down as good as your salespeople are. And there's some great people in there. Amazing. But really Neil Patel has to go give this, and you and you go in there and they say, Hey, Neil, just open it up, give the master opening to the pitch. We'll take over. But they really want to hear from you. What does that pitch sound like?

[00:38:53] Neil Patel: It's custom. I would go into the business, figure out their problems.

Look at it. Before I took the meeting, I would try to go and figure out what's wrong, where they're struggling, what are they trying to solve for? What are their goals? And adjust my pitch based on their pain points and break down. All the issues and why they have the pain points. And I would even break down what they should do to solve it.

I wouldn't actually break down. Hey, you can pay me. And here's the cost. I would actually try to build a longer-term relationship. I'd be like, look, here are your problems. Here's, what's causing you issues in the pain points and here's how you should solve it. And here's some data that shows you that this is the best solution and why.

[00:39:33] Oren Klaff: So I think this is really so important. I I work almost doing too much on this call, but this is so important. I think people w your style is a hundred percent in my mind accurate here. Here's the ideal. This is what you, no matter who you work with me, your cousin, Jim, who just graduated Stanford yesterday, publicist, France.

Like at this point I don't actually care. Who does this? Cause I don't know enough. But based on what I'm seeing, and I see a lot of this is the problem you're having, and this is the ideal that you need to reach. Can we do this for you? I don't know. Maybe probably. Okay. But I don't think we're there yet.

But today in order for you to compete against your peers, in order to meet a standard that is reasonable for a company of your strengths and capabilities to not be left behind in the current generation of, marketing and traffic, this is the ideal you have to reach and you have to reach it soon.

If you don't want to become a loser. And when we throw our hat in the ring, maybe, let's see how this meeting goes. And I think that is the that's the standard you want to reach in these early stages of the presentation. So you don't end up needing and pitchy and everything like that.

And I'm here. Did I hear, did we pattern match correctly? Are you saying the same thing that I'm saying

[00:40:54] Neil Patel: we are, we're saying the same thing, because the moment you pitch them, it's just a sales pitch. The moment you go in there and you say, these are your problems, this is why this is solutions, and then you ended up that if you did a good job, they're going to be like no. How do we work together? How do we solve this? Yeah. We want to work with you and then turned it around on them and be like let's see if we're a good fit. It depends on your resources, your budget, how quickly you want to move.

Are we the right fit for it? Because maybe you're looking for things that we can do. And we got to figure all that out before we get to the next steps.

[00:41:25] Oren Klaff: Yeah. Yeah. I feel a lot of salespeople remind me of the meme. Hey, I'm looking for my next toxic relationship. Where are you? Where are you?

I know you're out there somewhere. Let's flip it around. You buy a lot of stuff. I don't know that. I know at least you buy water, but I'm assuming you got 459, people doing stuff, you have to buy things. And so people come and pitch you. What do you like? W what are the, just that easy self-inflicted wounds that people make when they come pitch you stuff?

[00:41:59] Neil Patel: Not much. I don't actually buy that much myself. But I do get people pitching me stuff. And every once in a while I'll respond to people like someone's Neil, your YouTube thumbnail suck. You can get so much traffic. If they're better, here's some examples. I'm like, cool. I'm like, Hey, let's get on a call.

And how much would it cost for you to solve this? And they never responded to me. I was like, and I haven't followed up with them. And I'm like, this is stupid. You did outbound sales and you didn't even follow up. And then eventually I gave it to one of my guys I'm like, fix it. And they're like, okay, sounds good.

There are just a little bit more creative and cutting edge on what, some of the things they were testing. And and I was like, huh, it works. And we tried it out. It worked for a week to a month and then it stopped working. I was like, eh, we try to sometimes things work. Sometimes they don't, but I'm a big believer.

I'm open to any pitch. I don't care if someone called out, reached to me or I see an ad online, if you can solve a problem that I have right now, I'm all for it. If someone said I'm building a house in Vegas and someone said, Hey, Neil, for the same price, we can get your house book double as fast. It'd be like let's get on the phone and let's get this house built.

Like, how are you going to do it? And prove to me that you can actually do it and you're not full of crap.

[00:43:03] Oren Klaff: So that's interesting. And then, so let's trigger off of this full of crap business hat in our industry. When people come to talk to me about finance and they tell me about their company, I can just see through what they're saying into the numbers. Because I worked as an analyst for 10 years and I built very complex spreadsheets that are like the matrix. So when they say so, so when they say things like, oh, we have 20, $20 million of ARR and 92% margin and 0.02% churn rate. And we're growing 50% year over year.

And we're raising $2 million like that. These numbers don't actually work together in a base 10 spreadsheet. There's no company that has ever done that successfully before. And you idiots are definitely not the first one in marketing or SEO or traffic. What's the equivalent of that. Like the things you hear from people that you could just because you're so inside of it, you just see right through them and go, yeah, that's fine.

[00:44:04] Neil Patel: My favorite is people telling me like, Hey, we found another website online. They can get and rankings and they'll guaranteed. And only $295 a month. And when I say that, I'm like, great. If you believe that someone can guarantee ranking on Google, when they don't control the algorithm, you should go sign up with them.

And you got my number when things don't work out, I'm like, I'm not trying to be rude. And I'll tell him that. I'm like, I really do hope it works out, but I just know it won't because I've been in this space too long. You can't guarantee something you can't control. Can you guarantee that I'll fly?

No, you don't control that.

[00:44:35] Oren Klaff: So what are some other things you hear that you just, because you're in the business, you just know numerically, the numbers don't work.

[00:44:42] Neil Patel: Yeah. Sometimes people end up telling me Hey, I can go scale this up and make a killing. And we can like 10 X the volume on Facebook or Google and crush our campaigns.

And we have infinite budgets and I'm like, not really, you're competing with other people, but inventory is limited because there's always companies willing to spend more and they'll look at some of these businesses, like your conversion rates. Aren't high enough. There's no way it's going to scale up and actually hit these numbers in a profitable way.

But if you think you can do it, go and do it.

[00:45:09] Oren Klaff: And so it's yeah, a hundred percent. So is where a lot of these companies go to die is they get some early success that gets some good conversion. They buy some keywords, get some traffic, and then they, then, they take sell a deal.

Two through cell D 80 and just drag it out two years and go, we're a $30 million company, changes when you do that. And I'm like, there's so many variables that change. So what's happening. What's changing in, the good talk to me about the Google algorithm. What's changing in it. And also on top of that is Facebook going to go to search?

And when they do, what will the game look like?

[00:45:48] Neil Patel: So I'll answer the second one. First, Facebook has already tried to go to search and they haven't done well with it. People don't know Facebook for search, but they do search within Instagram or Facebook, but it's not a popular feature. Compared to people just looking at their walls.

So search. Yes, they do search, but they're not going to do search like Google. What's changing on Google is you already know everyone's using these mobile devices. But because of that speed really matters how fast your website loads and because there's so many sites competing for the same keywords.

Now Google's not just looking at algorithms like whose code is better or, who has a fascia loading site they're looking at, which site solves the problems for the users better than other ones. So looking at user experience are people clicking the back button, going to the next listing. Cause they couldn't find what they're looking for.

So they're really trying to go above and beyond to satisfy the user. So it's not just about quote unquote, pleasing, Google in marketing. It's about pleasing the user first

[00:46:39] Oren Klaff: then so if so if you look at someone like Casper as if you start a betting company, then you're going to go boom and run right into Casper.

And casper has raised a lot of money and they're shipping $300, inside of every mattress. But they're just doing it with ad words, right? So they're paying more for the links. What, what spaces are going to be open if sort of every DTC, what are you seeing?

[00:47:02] Neil Patel: One, a little bit will come down to the reality.

So if we get Casper, that's a great example. Casper has terrible economics. Go look at the earned wearable and they've had for ages and they raised too much money and they have to burn too much money to keep the growth is better. They would have been better off being a much smaller private company with less revenue, way less raise and have not as crazy growth and just print cash and be profitable.

So eventually shit hits reality. And these people do start cutting back because yes, Google's making the money now because companies want to grow in numbers. But eventually that game stops. People have to print a profit and if they don't, they're going to go out of business. So you should do whatever you can.

That is profitable. And don't worry if other people are willing to lose it. That's their business. Yeah. Yeah. It will be in business longer. Eventually those guys go bankrupt in most cases, not all but most

[00:47:55] Oren Klaff: so has every interesting D has every DTC thing that can be done already been done, toothpaste, toothbrush, dog food beds, bedding, sheets, furniture there's

[00:48:07] Neil Patel: most have, but it doesn't mean that there can't be more, but most have, yes.

There's always going to be new products, new technologies that comes around that you can sell through Adidas, DTC. But right now most have doesn't mean that there's not room and space in there touch you continually do better than the

[00:48:23] Oren Klaff: okay. But you built your you've got a services firm. So the guy who knows how to sell products better than anyone else in the world has a services firm.

What does that tell us?

[00:48:35] Neil Patel: I would go sell products, but I don't like the logistics of it. I think it's a pain in the butt to deal with inventory, but we've actually looked at acquiring product based companies. We actually picked on a few offers, but some didn't go through, they just want them more than we want.

[00:48:47] Oren Klaff: And what are, what areas did you like?

[00:48:50] Neil Patel: There was a razor company that was going against manscaped where we thought we could do really well. There was a hearing aid company that I was looking at that I can, I thought we could do really well. And these are saturated spaces, but there's just so much room to even grow these companies.

Cause the Tams are so big that we thought it'd be amazing, know, I'm a big believer in you stay patient and you only do a deal if it's right for you. What I look for is not how saturated is spaces. I look for fragmented spaces with big towns because that means there's opportunity and room for

[00:49:18] Oren Klaff: awesome. So good. Now I started this off saying, Hey, you're a king maker because if you really do pay attention to a solid state, this gay SSD, Satta, 3d, nano, whatever it is, who cares. If you decide that's your thing, right? Your son picks one up and he goes data, and his first words were around this and you find him sleeping with it. And you're like, oh my God, I gotta help him. Whatever who gives a damn. But you decide you're gonna do this. Then you can king make these guys with traffic and SEO and you can do your magic. Let's just take that as a given, cause I know you can, but there's things you know, that are happening in the world.

Water, poverty cyber security some things we've done, a light Africa. We did one in Africa. What happens is the young kids use carrots. To as lighting source to study at night and then young women maybe have to walk a mile or two away from their home at night to get a lighting source.

That's strong enough for them to study and do their work or plug in their laptop. So we did a project that use it, that gets charges batteries from sunlight. So they don't have to burn kerosene because kerosene is like the worst stuff that you can use to create light other than like a hand grenade.

It's just terrible. And so we try and use our magic here for, from time to time for things that matter for the greater community. So do you feel pulled into that stuff or do you feel like the it's all got to be, and this is a fair point. It's all just gotta be economics, right?

[00:50:57] Neil Patel: No. So we look at it as the core business has to run on economics and then you take a portion or some, or all, whatever you feeling like.

We take a portion and then we try to do good work. I say we try to do good with it because we're not on the ground in places like Africa or India with programs that we help out. But we're hoping that the people that we give the money to it actually helps. And in many cases we also do stuff within the continental United States as well.

But wherever we find opportunities like my wife just did a program last week. Or was it the week before, but back to school and teachers going and she's look, I, as a teacher, if you're going to be short supplied on supplies and she got a ton of inquiries, she's just let us know, we'll buy your supplies for your students and stuff.

Cause we know that a lot of people have suffered from COVID. So this is like whatever appeals to my wife or me or whatever appeals to our team members. We try to really encourage and we try to help out because. How many new cars do you need or how big of a home do you really need? There's other people who are cars, how many new cars do you need?

[00:51:54] Oren Klaff: Hold on. I'll tell you right now 115 23 now. But so yeah, so you put all the maladies or are in the world, like sickness, pestilence, like the eight plagues, and then you just spin the dial and it lands on one. Huh?

[00:52:07] Neil Patel: It relates to people that I know or me or my wife and we picked those. And then we try not to pick two big ones.

And here's what I mean by that. Yeah. There's some organizations that are trying to do a cure for cancer. It's amazing. They need the money, but I personally am not rich enough to actually make a dent in that. We can make it,

[00:52:28] Oren Klaff: let me say something. So we were going to cancer research lab, and literally the guys inside the lab, they'll get like a, $4,500 from no, they're like somebody will do a charity.

This is. Which is great. It sounds, this sounds terrible, but I will help you put it in context for people who give, okay, so somebody will do an event and they'll give the proceeds and it's a two day event and the do a bake sale or whatever. And they'll give the proceeds to this cancer research and it'll go down to the lab.

And I know the guys in the lab, we're trying to raise money and they're like, thanks. For the $4,500, you just bought one rat tail, right? That's like it doesn't, we're not going to cure cancer with the ability to buy one more rat tail. And so that taught like it, it's not just that you aren't deciding to take on something too big, like it takes real money to run a cancer lab and, you can run a bake sale in your neighborhood for the next year and make.

No, not to be mean, but no difference there. So you do have to pick somewhere where you can make a difference, right?

[00:53:33] Neil Patel: You're spot on. So the way I look at it as cancers, just as important as poverty and a lot of the other things out there, it's too hard for me to decide which ones are more important. But my wife and I look at it as can we actually make an impact?

And if we can't, can we get other people around us and give enough to make an impact? And if we can't do that, we pick the stuff that we can make it impact. And what I'm hoping is the bill gates is of the role in the Jeff Bezos. They're picking the initiatives that can make an impact, right? We can't make a debt, right?

[00:53:59] Oren Klaff: Let bill gates figure cancer out. Like he has, he can actually succeed at it. You can't. But I feel pulled in and this is my just two quick questions.

[00:54:08] Neil Patel: Do the marketing for it. That's what I'm saying. We'll do our part and we'll help where we can. I just, yes. I want to spend the time and be productive instead of spending time.

And it just spinning wheels and not do anything for these or is this, but we will help, like we did some with like liver transplant companies or organizations where we're like, look, our money, won't do much but less money on marketing to bring awareness, which will then get you way more money than what I can bring and that'll help you out.

[00:54:36] Oren Klaff: Yeah. I agree. So I have my name on some multi-billion dollar projects that I couldn't like, my money would. First of all, if I get money reduced, the number of cars I could buy but also it just wouldn't make a, it wouldn't make a dent in anything you're doing, but where I can make a dent is their presentation is just terrible.

And there's something we can meaningfully move them forward with, in a multi-billion dollar project. And that creates impact. Hey Neil, I'm I know you're getting a hook on time, me as well. Tell us about your son please.

[00:55:06] Neil Patel: So my son, he's almost two months old now, his name is William and he cries a lot at night and I love that stuff.

[00:55:13] Oren Klaff: Are you changing diapers?

[00:55:15] Neil Patel: I yeah, so you're like a I'm a actual dad that does work. Dad. You're a dad. Yes, I try. I think of my job as much easier than the mother, so I try to help as much.

[00:55:27] Oren Klaff: And your daughter she's two years old. Yeah. What does she do? Where does she work?

[00:55:34] Neil Patel: And she's an artist.

She likes finger painting and creating messes in the kitchen and for your kids.

[00:55:40] Oren Klaff: Most of the people I work with for better or worse are very well-positioned in life and they have really divergent views on what they want to give their kids. And some are like, I'm not going to leave. My kids are going to work to going to work.

They're going to they're not going to live off of me. I was raised in a garbage. I had it tough Gary Vaynerchuk, we had to go out with my dad and scrub in garbage cans for dinner, at night. And and then I have other guys are like, I grew up in a trailer, my kid is growing up in a 10,000 square foot house.

And I bought him, his first jet ski when he was four and I don't care, I'm just going to spoil him. And because I can't,

[00:56:20] Neil Patel: we're the opposite. We're more of a, love you, we'll guide you and give you the tools you need and the knowledge you need to try to succeed. And we'll do our best on that end, but you got to go and figure it out on your own and we're not giving.

Like all this stuff like that, or I'll pay for the education. I'll get them a used car to get to school, but like I'll even pay for the living for school, things like that. But you want a home go by yourself. You want to go to Italy and travel the world, go do it yourself. Like you want to Ferrari go by yourself.

You don't even a Mercedes or a Tesla. Go buy it yourself. Man, go buy it yourself.

[00:56:54] Oren Klaff: At my son's school, they did an exercise. He's six to seven. He said six, seven. And they go the exercise was, you had to write down what your happy place is, your happy place. And some of the kids go my reading nook at home in my mom's arms at the library, my son, right?

The Lamborghini factory. So he yeah, I'm just like you, except I'm a quarter million dollars into my son's racing career, and he's six. And he also, he would if you left him alone in our kitchen for a couple of days, with a fridge full of food, he would starve so different styles.

There's not one way of doing things. Neil, thank you so much for spending your time here today. I feel like I learned a lot about you that we didn't get from all of your videos and appreciate you sharing another side of you that maybe we don't always get to see. And definitely the the takeaways in terms of marketing and sales and revenue growth are. Meaningful. I heard some things that I know, but I know make a difference in businesses and heard some things I didn't know. And for example, when I say things that will make a difference in your business, like anchor high, when you're going to enterprises that if you're a SME that could double your revenue, just that alone in the next 12 months.

So there's some real stuff here. I really appreciate you sharing what I feel is things that will meaningfully move businesses forward. Really appreciate that.

[00:58:27] Neil Patel: Thank you for having me. It's been fun.

[00:58:29] Oren Klaff: All right, we'll see you next time. Take care.