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Oren Klaff Talks to Bestselling Author Anthony Iannarino

Don't miss this Episode of the Dealmaker Show, with Oren Klaff and Anthony Iannarino talking about Winning your Customers away from the Competition, among other things!

Anthony Iannarino is the author of 3 Top Selling books: The Only Sales guide you will Ever Need; Eat their Lunch and of course The Lost Art of Closing!

He is also the owner of B2B Sales Coach & Consultancy, a boutique sales coaching and consulting firm with a focus on helping salespeople and sales organizations grow, develop, and reach their full potential. He also owns Iannanrino Sales Accelerator, which is a learning management system for sales professionals and sales managers.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Oren Klaff: Welcome to the dealmaker show. I got an incredible guest here today. A master of B2B sales, but before I get there, I just want to say something. I was just on the phone with the


[00:00:07] Oren Klaff: CEO of a company.

I said, pitch me your deal. He pitches the deal a little bit, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Why I'm gonna stop him. You are on the phone right now with me and my partner, two guys who can introduce you to a billion dollars of capital. Why are you pitching like this? So that's you today. You're going to be on the line here with two guys who have the experience.

To find anybody, anybody prospect, that you're interested in, how to get through, how to find them, how to pitch them, how to close them. We're going to do all of that today. But this is the strategies that are actually being used today by your competition. And hopefully by you soon, I'd like to introduce Anthony.

I R and then you're going to help us pronounce your last name and a Reno in Reno. I was prepared for it. And then the idea that I was going to be on the line with, you got me nervous. So let me finish my introduction and bring you on fully. So welcome. This is the Dealmaker show. I'm Oren Klaff.

This is the place for really lively discussion to discover what's new and interesting our culture, your culture, right technology, what's new in business with a focus on deal making for you management geeks out there that okay. It's three to five new strategies per show that you can deploy in your own business as measured by increased revenue.

And that's our goal here today. Give you some increased revenue. So laughter conflict, pain, and truth. That's what we're going after. And I have Anthony here too to take us there. Anthony. Welcome.

[00:01:42] Anthony Iannarino: Thanks for having me on. It's good to meet you finally.

[00:01:46] Oren Klaff: Yeah. I don't know for me. Where are you? You're in New York.

[00:01:48] Anthony Iannarino: Columbus, Ohio. Okay. But every, everybody thinks I'm a new Yorker.

[00:01:53] Oren Klaff: I don't know why we got a little chance to talk. What is changing in sales today? Because everything has changed in our culture. Everything in our technology, everything in the attitude of buyers. But how does that translate on the ground? If you're a B2B sales guy

[00:02:20] Anthony Iannarino: I'm in a hundred percent agreement with your first statement, there's everything has changed. And what I would tell you is that we still train and teach salespeople what we call legacy approaches. So some of these things that people are being taught and trained to do are maybe 53 or 54 years old. So they're completely out of date for a couple reasons. And this is a kind of thing that I think is important for people to understand.

In 1967, the year I was born, there was information disparity. So a salesperson would know more than their client knew at that particular time, because they would have a lot of information that wasn't available. There's no internet. Go forward a few years to legacy solution. And now it's find the problem, identify the pain, insert your solution.

It just doesn't work anymore. So these legacy approaches have lost their efficacy in part because buyers need something different and what do they need? They live in a complex environment. It's completely disruptive. It's accelerating constant change and they can't solve their own problem because they can't solve the problems of solving that problem in the first place, which the first one is, what the hell am I supposed to do right now?

The world is on fire. What do you do? They can't make sense of even making a decision in this environment without a sales person coming in. And using a new skill or in that I would call sensemaking it's coming in and making sense out of their world, giving them insights and helping them understand the decision that they're making and the nature of that.

And so on just our few good, go ahead.

[00:03:54] Oren Klaff: There's a lot to unpack there. Yeah. All right. So I think I'd like to nail down, what's changed, first of all, it's perfectly acceptable to not fly some, just get somebody on a zoom call. I just pitched a company in Geneva yesterday, and we're in a go-forward mode.

They didn't go fly out here, motherfucker. If five years ago, I'd be on a plane to Geneva trying to land a couple of hundred dollar account. And today they're like fine. We will argue about signing an agreement over zoom now that we think the positive side of that. But the negative side is the second that you impress somebody that you become impressed.

They now are have the ability to take what you're offering and search the world for someone else. And so my focused question is by the way, I have all these questions for you. We are not going to get here. Hey, you need to get on a plane and fly out here. No, my focus question is what steps in your mind can be taken to lock in forward progress on a deal when it's so easy for them to take your proposal, to take your idea, to take your insight and shop it.

[00:05:16] Anthony Iannarino: There's a number of things that you can do to prevent that. First of all, I'm going to have to give you two other concepts. And I believe that you're going to believe what I believe right now. When I say this in any dynamic where there's two human beings talking, one of them is in the one-up position and one of them is in the down position.

Do you agree with that?

[00:05:36] Oren Klaff: Yes, because I'm always in the down position to the world of horrible, low means low resources and getting the scraps and looking up at the Anthony meanings of the world, flying over me on their jets.

[00:05:53] Anthony Iannarino: Yes, I agree. Okay. So one of the things that you need to be able to do is to be non-meat, which means I'm the one in the one-up position and why am I in the one up position? I'm in the one-up position because I'm the person who has the ability to get you those results. You called me because you need help getting the results. And if you could get those results without me, you would have already done that. So I have to be driving this in a non meek way, because it's my deal.

I'm the one that's proposing this. I'm the one that's going to help them get the result. So I'm going to ask some questions and I'm going to have a number of questions that I ask that, remind them that if you look at this with someone else, what you have to understand is it's not their original idea. It's not something that they've executed. There's four factors that they don't even know to consider and to follow on programs that you're not going to be able to do with anybody else, but us. So if this is the right thing, we need to figure out how we do it. That's a non meek approach, but some people don't like that and they don't like it.

[00:06:54] Oren Klaff: So I think what we're talking about here is status. And I agree yeah, go ahead.

[00:06:58] Anthony Iannarino: Yeah. I'm just looking at, that's a dominance hierarchy way too far. It's not and listen. So let me say this because people pop up and they say things like this, here's the deal on something like this. If I was buying something from them, they would be one up. They know more about their industry, their business. They're one up in a whole bunch of different places, but where I'm an expert, I'm the person that's one up. So I'm going to try to manage the whole conversation from beginning to end, because I have to help them by facilitating their buyer journey. I'm not here for them to drive me through what they think their buyer's journey is because I'm the one responsible for getting them a result.

[00:07:35] Oren Klaff: So I think we can sum this topic up. I'm just taking some notes when I'm looking down, I'm not checking Instagram, which is something I want to talk to you about. But I'm taking notes. Let's compare our actual scripts on this because, by the way, if you're in sales and you think about scripts, which I think are incredibly powerful, the scripts are much more powerful towards the beginning and much less powerful towards the end, because when you get to the end of a sale, it starts to get entropy, right?

Everything is so custom and so unique and so complex towards the end. At the beginning. It's quite simple, but the way I, and I'll see this the way I think about this is Anthony. You have this problem. I don't, in fact, I've solved this a thousand times. It's actually, this is actually a pretty easy version of it for me to solve, but we're also busy.

You have a few minutes here. Not to be rude, but to impress the number one person in the world who does this solve this problem that you have, and while we're talking, your problem is getting worse. Not a problem. We have, you have it. So before we give your problem back to you and say, it's not, it doesn't feel like a perfect fit.

Let's try and move this forward. And use the time that we have together. You with the problem, me with the having solved this many times and figure out if our circles overlap enough to do something right. So that's why, how I try and get control. As you said over the understanding that yeah, you have the problem and we don't, and I am happy to separate and go about my business.

If we can't get somewhere fairly economically and now there's rules to the game. And so a couple things I want to let you talk because it's your show, but I'm going to finish up here. Now we've established a game and it has rules and the rules are fair for both sides. And so all I've controlled is the Plainfield in basketball.

They control the game. They decide how wide the cord is, how long it is, how high the baskets are. And they tell you when you're allowed to touch and fowl people, and then you go play the game. And that's what I want is a fair game where both sides get to play by the same rules. And so that's the way I think about it.

I know you have the same, but slightly different version of it. What's your script. And you're saying, by the way, you're so smooth. I think it's unfair because you do these things and you're calm, collected, and smooth, and I'm like, I'll go, duh. Yes. But then I try it and it doesn't come up.

So you're very charismatic. You're like sneaky, charismatic, but in the sneaky, charismatic way that you do it, walk us through that formula.

[00:10:40] Anthony Iannarino: I liked what you did. I would do it a little bit different, but not that different. And I would probably say something like we're in, listen, it looks like this is important to you. It's exactly the right kind of work for us to do with somebody like you. But I have a limited amount of bandwidth that we can do this with over the next six months. But it would mean you have to start immediately right now for us to do this. Does it make sense to do that? And if you put it off, what are you going to do?

[00:11:08] Oren Klaff: So you like to ask questions?

[00:11:10] Anthony Iannarino: Oh yeah. I like to ask questions. I like to make, I do. I only like them because that person has to go. I don't have anything else to do. Okay, good. Then we should get started. I don't think that questions are good or bad. I just like them when it makes the person have to go into themselves to decide what would I do?

[00:11:30] Oren Klaff: And should I do, but you said that if I could get the price down to $30,000 and I had one in red that you take it. And I just happened to have one. So can we go forward today and get you into this vehicle?

[00:11:46] Anthony Iannarino: I would never buy a red car ,Oren I only drive black.

[00:11:51] Oren Klaff: You said your wife would love a red car. I went and got you.

So anyway, let's talk about, I'm going to sell you a car by the end of this. But then I love my cars, so it's just gonna be a fake sale and I want it back. Do you, are you on Instagram? Who do you follow?

[00:12:08] Anthony Iannarino: Instagram? I follow a whole bunch of people. So I like people that think I like people that I can learn something from.

So I follow a lot of .Different people, but many of them you can

[00:12:20] Oren Klaff: follow the rock. Okay. Who else?

[00:12:22] Anthony Iannarino: I don't follow the rock. I don't think I do. I follow you. I follow a whole bunch of people in my space. I know a lot of friends there. I'm not a big so here's what people tell me where, and they're like, you have a really good Instagram page.

I probably not seen it. Like I don't spend a lot of time on Instagram myself.

[00:12:44] Oren Klaff: I can see that because you don't say that publicly you go. I have a nice Instagram page. I worked really hard on it. It's highly curated and some of my best thoughts go there, but here's where I'm going with it. We talked a little bit before in 1956, a salesman would go make a presentation to a fortune 500 company from IBM.

He knew what to expect. They knew how he looked. He flew there when it made the presentation, he had the black skinny tie, the black suit, white shirt, black wing tips. And if he died in the middle of the presentation, you could just shuffle them out. A new guy would come in and they wouldn't know the difference, right?

Because there was no culture wars. There was no sense of charisma in sales presentation. There wasn't a sense that you were an expert and you were so part of. Product, what you said is that, that I'm an expert in this, I've solved this and we have the solution and between me and the product, that's something unique, but I'm starting to feel like in our culture, you can't disintermediate yourself, who you are, your cultural beliefs, some elements of yourself into the actual presentation. And so you're asking questions which I don't love to do, but where in your mind, what has changed? Because we have such strong culture wars. What part of yourself do you have as a B2B salesperson? Do you have to put in these presentations? Should they know anything about you?

[00:14:21] Anthony Iannarino: I think you have to be who you are, or you're not going to even resonate with anybody and listen where you're doing the same thing that you're describing with IBM. The discovery call that we've done. We've been doing now by my count, maybe 35 years, same conversation.

Here's some information about my company. Here's some logos. Here's what our solutions are. What's keeping you up at night. We've done that pattern now for 35 years. So two salespeople walk in salesperson A walks in, does that pattern salesperson B comes in, sits down in the same chair, two days later does the same exact thing that this person is suffering through for maybe the 400th time, because they don't have anything to say.

They're not proposing that they have some sort of expertise. It's all. "Let me tell you about my company. I'm leaning on that for credibility, because I don't feel like I have the relevance to do it myself." So what happens at the end of that meeting two salespeople, a and B. If you ask the client, what's the difference between the two A's a little bit taller and his logo is blue and B's a little bit shorter and their logo's red.

That's the experience for the person on that end. And if you're not there as a sense-maker, if you're not there as an expert, if you're not there to explain to them what they have to change on their side. So this is an important point. Most of the people that are listening to this believe that their job is to displace their competitor and insert their solution.

Most of the time that's incorrect. It's not enough. The client has to make a change. So you have to go and tell the client on your side, you have to do something different, but we're making salespeople meek. We're making them meek in every single way. Can't call anybody on the phone Oren, you can't call them because that would be interrupting them.

And they're going to be mad at you for that.

[00:16:07] Oren Klaff: What does a meek salesperson say? What does a meek business person say?

[00:16:15] Anthony Iannarino: I can go through my last cold call that I took. I take every cold call that comes to my phone. It's field research. And why wouldn't what would now be a good time for what? There's not even an agenda.

[00:16:30] Oren Klaff: I know him in interruption. If you just give me 27 seconds, I'll show you how I can improve the revenues at your business and change the quality of your quarterly reports.

[00:16:39] Anthony Iannarino: I would never talk to anybody who only needs 27 seconds. Thank you for your time. Nah. Like, why am I talking to somebody?

That's is an old gimmick to try to give the person the confidence to, to make a call. If you don't already have the confidence inside you, that I can help this person. If they let me have a conversation with them, I can help them start solving problems that they believe are intractable. I can do those things, but I'm not going to have to do something.

That's is now a good time. Is now a bad time. Do you have 27 seconds? All those are just things that somebody taught people so that they would actually make a call. And it's meekness that they're creating.

[00:17:16] Oren Klaff: I think this is good. We're coming back around to where we started people say to me, just get me in the room. Just get me access. I know what I'm doing. I know my product. I know where the best in the market. I have a good presentation. I sell people all the time. Just get me in. And that's what gave birth to this. I know I'm in interruption. Sorry. Probably have on here, the guy who invented that, and he's he, you know what he's doing right now?

He's I get on this. I get on his call. I put me on this call, sorry, Chris, you'll be on a different call. Just give me 27 seconds. I know him interruption, but I think I can really change the way you're whatever. And so then you are, have quite a strong defense of that, but most people say, okay, 27 seconds, whatever. And then they go through the pitch and then they get in from time to time, even a blind hog finds a truffle every once in a while. Whoever said that was exactly. Or probably even though I promised or actually, he said that the, the king of Oxford in 10 66 battle of Hastings, cause we don't have blind and wouldn't have truffles, but anyway so what'll happen. Then somebody will get in, they'll get a meeting, they'll do a presentation, they'll start going down. But it's right where you started.

I'd rather not be in that sale that way because of the low status position.

[00:18:44] Anthony Iannarino: Beggar you're like I'm begging for an opportunity.

[00:18:48] Oren Klaff: And so your proposal goes in, you're not an expert, you're not a peer. You're not a high status person. I get a proposal. And now what do I do? I know I have a baseline of what's possible.

And now I go look for a peer, an expert, and a high status person sleep with the fishes.

[00:19:09] Anthony Iannarino: Exactly. That's exactly right. And I think that we're underestimating. So there's a lot of things about know and trust, but right now, if you can't create value for me, if I don't think that you're a peer. If we're not equals and you don't bring something to the table, I don't need to buy from you.

You're not useful to me. I need somebody who's going to cover the gaps in my thinking, because they know more than I know I need you to be one up so that you can teach me what I need to do to get the results that I need for my business. And we have people doing this in a way that is exactly the opposite. It's proving that they don't have the expertise or the confidence or the status to be able to go in and do those things. And this is where the world has changed. So anything that can be done or in transactionally is going to find its way to the internet. If it hasn't already, it's going to find its way to the internet.

I can get the information about your company. That's not hard to do. If you don't have real insights and the real capacity to help make a difference, I've got no use for you. And this is just where we are. I didn't choose this. This is the time that we live in and this is what changed buyers expect more. They need more.

They expect you to have something to offer that's worth of value to them. And so when people call and they say, do you have 27 seconds? I already know you don't have anything to say. I already know you don't have it. Cause you just told me I don't have an agenda, that's worth your time. They project that.

[00:20:35] Oren Klaff: I think if you don't have leads, by the way, you, if you don't have enough leads, you are on fucking drugs. I'm telling you that I like email our team or any like the tech stack is deployable. Like every known company, client, person, there's data on them. They're in a database they're reachable by phone, email, Facebook ads, you can spend dollars on them now.

The question is between leads is your product intent-based or is it interruption based? If your product is intent-based you sell cupcake sprinkles, all you have to do is pay more for the lead traffic than the next guy, and figure out a longer revenue tail than the next guy. And you have a business, right?

But if you want a hundred million dollar revenue cupcake sprinkle company, come talk to me. We'll sprout that up in eight months. It's just keyword buying that's intent-based right. By the way, write that down. That's a good idea. Okay. I'm going to start that. Are you in, okay.

[00:21:41] Anthony Iannarino: I'm more of a Pie. I go with cup pies instead of cupcakes. Like I'm more of a pie guy,

[00:21:47] Oren Klaff: so I know everybody wants to hear about your brain surgery that you had. And I know you're very health conscious and everything, but we're going to get to that last. By the way that's a different webinar, which is an entry gloop. Okay. Just open up an entry gloop. You don't get to hear about the brain surgery.

Probably cause Anthony doesn't want to talk about it, but but moving forward, I know you're very health conscious. That's why you don't want to be in the sprinkle company. Intent-based search you just buy keywords, interruption based search you email phone, you can find their Iridium phone.

If they're on a desert island floating around in their yacht. On the other side of the world in the middle east, you can get to them. It's not possible you don't have leads. That's what we don't talk a lot today. 10 years ago, you're like, I need a lead. That's why going into this. I don't want you to comment on it. We get situations where somebody goes, oh, I can get you in here. I can introduce you to the VP of finance. No, not from your dumb ass. Don't do not make that introduction. And they're like, oh, I can hear you. No, do not do that. Cause that introduction comes in from dummy number one, then I'm now I'm pegged as being an affiliate of this dummy. And I got to fight my way up the status hierarchy, the social hierarchy at apple to actually have credibility to where I would want to take that meeting. So feed me back this statement in your own vernacular .Status is everything, except for the other two things, but status is everything without it. Feed that back to me.

[00:23:22] Anthony Iannarino: If you do not have the one-up position, then you are survival. You're compliant. You're an order taker and not taking their orders. Actually taking orders from the customer. Who's telling you, fill this thing out, talk to my purchasing guy, all these other things.

If you don't have the status and you're not a peer, then you're not in the one-up position. And this is what has to happen. If you want to be an expert, if you want to be consultative. And or when people, when I asked them what consultative means, they tell me two things. I ask really good questions.

Fine. And I don't use any high pressure tactics. Okay, fine. Again, not consultative. Consultative means I'm going to tell you how to run your business. I'm going to tell you how to make this decision, because I have greater experience here than you making this decision, not because I think I'm a higher status person as a human being. I'm sure that in, in many ways, the person I'm sitting across from are one up over me and a whole bunch of areas, because I'm rather narrow, I'm rather narrow. So I don't have the expertise in a whole bunch of areas, but where I do.

[00:24:29] Oren Klaff: But bro, you get on the phone with a hedge fund manager, for whatever reason. I don't know why you're talking to a hedge fund manager, but you are.

[00:24:41] Anthony Iannarino: I like it so far. I like the, this, the script is working great for me here. I like this

[00:24:47] Oren Klaff: and it's guy manages $8 billion of capital. They're interested in some SAS software to protect their crypto. Cyber security network just happens to be what you do, but you're really talking to a master of the universe.

Guy flies around in a Amber air legacy, 600 vacations in the niece of France in his own a home when he's not at Aspen, manages $8 billion and spends and gets invited to the Aspen conference of bill gates and mark Zuckerberg go to, and now you're talking to him.

[00:25:23] Anthony Iannarino: I'm still one up.

Let's get inside your head.

[00:25:27] Oren Klaff: What are you doing still? One up, what are you doing inside your head? What are you doing inside? Anthony's had to stay one up because that squashes, most people listening to this.

[00:25:40] Anthony Iannarino: Okay. So here's what I'm doing in my head or into a hedge fund manager. He knows a lot. He is a master of the universe, and I'm going to upgrade you and put you in a global 6,000. I think that's where you belong Oren unusually long and something that's serious. You're a serious guy. So I'm going to put you in that plane, but I'm going to say he doesn't know beans from brussel sprouts about solving this problem with his cryptocurrency hedge fund. So he needs me to come in and help him understand all of the things that he's going to have to factor into a decision about what the right solution looks like and how am I going to win Oren's business. I'm going to teach him how to recognize all these factors, how to weigh them. So he has an understanding of this is why this needs to be more important for you, even though this thing that somebody else told you is important. It's important for somebody else who doesn't have a hedge fund. And he let me explain to you why.

So I'm going to be the one that's teaching and driving the conversation. Because even though you're a hedge fund manager, you're one down in this particular category, I'm one. When I need advice on what to do with my money. You're one up. And I'm going to listen to you with a wide open ears. Cause I don't want to stay one down longer than I have to.

[00:26:49] Oren Klaff: So you're teaching them, but specifically my guess is you're teaching them how to buy,

[00:26:57] Anthony Iannarino: how to make a decision.

[00:27:00] Oren Klaff: So give us an example of that,

[00:27:04] Anthony Iannarino: how to make a decision. Yeah. So let me tell you what I'll give you. One of the easiest ways to try to convey this to people. And it's a tranq triangulation strategy. So a triangulation strategy means I'm going to leave the playing field. I'm not on the playing field anymore because that's where people who don't win play, they are on the field. I'm going to elevate myself. So now I'm sitting next to you as a hedge fund, and I'm going to say, Oren let me tell you what, there's four primary models that people use to deliver a SAS solution that you might mistake for ours. There's four of them. Now I'm going to explain to you what happens when you big choice number one, you're going to make a number of concessions around security that will probably not work for you right out of the gate. And then I'm going to explain the entire playing field so that the person understands. I'm making a decision about a model. I'm making some concessions, and what's the concession that I'm going to ask you to make, Oren in your hedge fund manager. I'm going to ask you to pay more than you would pay for any of these other solutions. Because that's the one thing that's going to ensure that you don't have any problems in the future. All the other ones come with a different set of concessions that you're going to agree to. Maybe not knowing, but now, cause I just showed you, this is what's what the world looks like.

So I'm going to teach. So that I'm the one that's actually making the decision by pointing to it in this particular way and teaching it. You're skeptical. Go ahead.

[00:28:28] Oren Klaff: Yeah, no, you're sneaky. Smooth. You're so good. I was going to swear at you.

[00:28:33] Anthony Iannarino: Please do.

[00:28:34] Oren Klaff: Yeah, no. All so I agree. How do you in your mind that, so I agree that status, which is you're good at what you do. If I was going to invest in crypto or whatever, that you're a hedge fund. I'd buy it from you, but when you buy cybersecurity, you have to buy it for me. You have to listen to me. So I think of the high, the reason I chose a hedge fund manager, I know these guys, I feel like you can't just be high status. You have to think about where they are and get way up there. So as social-proofed as they are, as big as they are, as tough as they are, you got to go there. There's not some, I feel like what we could end up here with is younger kids going "I need to show some status". You have to think about where they are and get up there.

Not too high, but not go below right here.

[00:29:36] Anthony Iannarino: You got to at least be a pier. Yeah. And here's the thing, though. This is what young people do they think it's the, watch. And the watch basically just gives you a way like that. You don't have sadness like you can't fake it. If you walk into the room and the presence isn't felt, you already don't have status and how you walk into the room and how you greet people and your confidence. It's either going to give you away. Or it's going to prove that you are what you say. You are one of those two things.

[00:30:05] Oren Klaff: Whenever I deal with guys managing billions, the first thing I do is I just insult them it's because when these guys come together, they a very collegial, Hey, how are you doing? He's so fly. I've seen him. He's still flying around in that tiny plane. The legacy 600 is not a small player. We'll compare to global express. Yeah, that's a funny, Hey, did you see Jim? And so they're quite testy and the women too, they're quite testy with each other. And so I think you've got to figure out ways.

So for me, if you want the easy shortcut to status. I'd love your opinion on this is to say something that all your competitors and peers would not say, because they can,

[00:30:46] Anthony Iannarino: would be afraid to say they would be afraid to say so generally after I work with a CEO and I know them well enough, not perfect, but I know them at dinner or something like that. Or in my favorite question to ask is how long before people figure out you have no idea what the hell you're doing? Like how long is it going to take for people to figure this out? And they all say the same thing. I'm surprised nobody said anything yet. There's not a CEO school. Like I showed up here, they made me the CEO and I've been trying to figure it out ever since.

And this is when you get this kind of a conversation going with someone, they will let you know, there's a whole bunch of gaps. I'm trying to find people that can fill for me. I'm trying to find people that are smarter than me in these other areas. Cause I'm trying to run a whole company and I can't be an expert in everything.

So for us as salespeople, you've got to be somebody that can fill that gap for them. They're trying to find somebody, people like go to the Bible, go as far back into history, as you want leaders and decision-makers always surrounded themselves with trusted advisors. Why? Because they don't know everything.

They know, they don't know everything. And they prefer not to be surprised. They don't like good surprises and they don't like bad surprises. They want to know because they're in charge of the whole operation and they have to make sure that they drive it forward. So that's just my experience. And my view is that they're looking for people who can actually contribute and then they buy from people who can contribute and they avoid people that waste their time.

[00:32:17] Oren Klaff: So I think the time-wasting is interesting that programmatically, what I try and do is get in there and trying to ignore. I think step one I think about is ignore their self-perceived status. And you go, Hey, how's it going? Talk a little bit more informally and a little bit faster than they're used to.

Hey, how's it going? Y'all great to see you today. I'm super busy over here. Like really? And by the way, everybody's busy, unemployment is negative 15%, right? Like a lot of our peers, people are accepting jobs after long negotiations. And then just not showing up for the start date, because during that time they got two other jobs.

Hey, how's it going? Gab? We're super busy assume you are too right. Ignoring all the status cues that the larger company, whether it's Microsoft or a hedge fund or Oracle, or, just a large customer and just saying, Hey, I'm trying to get to somewhere as fast as possible, where super busy, it looks like you've got this problem about as bad as you can get it.

And so it's a ticking time bomb to the point that we would even want to work on it. And to me, those are status cues that even if you just started, even if you're just 19 years old, you can deploy immediately and get at the same level of anybody that you're talking to. So agree or disagree.

I agree. I think that it's important that you establish that you're there to create value for them. And I think that the more, like what I see people do is spend way too much time and work way too hard to develop rapport. And they don't understand that the rapport with somebody who's making decisions is what do you have to offer?

Are you a peer or not? So once you don't present that. They know already where they are with you. I'm going to tell you, like I had a client who called me from New York where I happened to be, to come in for a meeting because they were failing. And when I got in the room he pretended to be writing on the whiteboard, something that was important because he had his whole team there and he made sure that I recognized that he wasn't looking at me so that he could develop that status.

And when he came over and told me, you're failing me and you need to do something about it. And I said you need to do something about it, not me because you're the one that determined how this was working and it's not working for you. And you're going to need to do this. If you want to get it solved.

And he said, two hours ago, your competitive is sitting in that chair and told us we didn't have to change a thing. Are you telling me he lied to me? And I said, I'm telling you he's afraid of you and I'm not. And I'm going to tell you the truth and you can take the truth or you can leave it. But this is the truth. If you don't do it, you're dead. That's it. And the rest of the room is horrified. But I know this is a game that he's playing. We're both playing the same game. You talked about, there's a field, right? There's a basketball court. I'm on the same field that he's on. He's not offended by me. He's not afraid of me. We're having a little bit of a conflict. And how do things get solved in business? Sometimes it's a little bit of a conflict, right? So you can be diplomatic. You can be patient, but you do have to engage in it. If that's what it takes for you to be able to move a client forward, in my opinion. I would prefer to tell the truth at any price, even the price of the deal.

So you fucking up my podcast because that was the end of it. I guess we're just gonna talk about this and then try and find something else to fill in a few minutes with, if you want status, Anthony just laid it out for you. Truth and pain. If that's all you talk about, you will have status truth and pain. Rapport? Yeah. Listen, man. I know if we talk about this long enough, it's probably true that your sister and my brother's sister's boyfriend went to Northwestern university during the same two year period. And that is not going to get any or make us feel good. Like we might know each other. I like football. I like piña coladas, walking in the rain, holding hands, Al Pacino movies every once in a while I use my laptop to look at some racy videos.

I like NFL, did you see the Rams Raiders games? Can you believe the Olympics is going to be in Los Angeles? And but we're not, that's not going to get us any closer to doing something together because this is a million dollar decision. And as much as it hurts to hear it, I'm busy and I'm going to try and be nice to you. But at some point, if you try and buy advisory services the same way the government buys toilets? I'm out. We could use our time efficiently and get rid of the Kabuki theater. Listen, I know you, by the way, this is called an Emminem movie. Did you see eight mile? If you want to know this page, just watch eight mile. Yeah, I know. I live in a trailer. I've never done a rap song before I, my mom was in jail. I do drugs. My car is worth a hundred dollars. What else you got on me? Truth and pain will give you the status you need.IF You get to the other side of it, which is where I want to get you for the rest of the time, you can establish that you're an expert status, truth and pain, but you have to be able to be more of an expert in their problem than they are. If they feel like they're teaching you elements of their problem and that you have to go away and figure it out, then you're not there. You can have status, but without expertise, you don't own the account. In your mind, Anthony, where do you, how do you communicate expertise without telling people. How good you are, without showing people logos of things you've done before or walking them through features of your product.

I love that question. Features of debt, by the way. I'm asking you if I take everything away. Okay. I'm thinking, watch this look at that. I took Anthony away. He's gone. Okay.

[00:38:41] Anthony Iannarino: I'm back. You could take everything away. I don't need to talk about my company. I don't need to talk about my logos. I don't need to talk about my solution. I don't need to talk about any of that thing. I built a $50 million staffing company. It's a family business. I built it. I had no brochures, no business cards, a legal pad, a pen and chops.

That's it. That's what you need. So you need to have chops so you can walk in and sit down. I can still tell you today. Or in that there is a 2.8 million people on continuing claims and unemployment. There's another 8.4 million people who are Uber drivers. Or they're self-employed who are getting a different type of pandemic relief, which is why no, one's getting anybody to work right now because of this pandemic relief.

I can tell you that there's 10.3 million open vacant jobs in the United States right now. And I can tell you that in the third quarter of 2020 at the height of the recession, 28 million baby boomers said, we're not coming back to work at all. So this is why we have the predicament that we have. And so your question is, where am I going to get my people? How am I going to retain the people I have as the rates start going up? Like they're going up when supply and demand actually starts to take effect. So I'm going to teach you how to understand the market that you're in. I'm going to teach you how to make the decisions that you make. And I'm going to do this without ever talking about my company about my solution, about any logos, because that's not the conversation, the sales conversation isn't oh. Oren, and what's keeping you up at night? Why did you come into my office and take my time? If you don't have some idea about where I need help now, you're going to fish around Hey, what about this thing? What about that? Then? And you're going to waste everybody's time. Why would you not have a theory about what your client needs help on and why wouldn't you have a set of insights to teach them how to make that decision, when you come in and sit down with them? why would you do it any other way than that? If you're an expert,

[00:40:36] Oren Klaff: this is why, and this is where I disagree with you. This is why I don't like to ask questions because I already know most of the answers, right? You're not walking into an account. And like in the old days you sell photography, equipment light bulbs, accounting services, and car insurance, and you need to figure out what they like, what you sell. And there's enough information about the company that, 80% of the situation, especially in B2B sales, it's not like you're sitting there most of us on a robo dialer hello, may I please speak to the head of the man? And then you have to ask some questions to sell insurance. What problems they have, what you do. So I feel like most of discovery is wasted about you asking questions about answers that you already know .

[00:41:23] Anthony Iannarino: You and I are in wild agreement. So let me tell you the kind of questions that I ask Oren, is it better to take care of this now on the timeline that you control or are you willing to wait and have to do this at a time where it might hurt your business more than it's hurting it? Now I'm not asking what's keeping you up at night. I'm telling you're going to have a problem.

[00:41:42] Oren Klaff: I feel like you're setting me up. I am. When I hear that question I get defensive and it might be because I'm a skeptic, right? And I'll have a background in engineering. And I work in finance and there's special sort of circumstances that have turned me into a skeptic. And also I'm in this field. But in general, when I hear a question that's too smooth, I get worried I'm getting set up.

[00:42:11] Anthony Iannarino: You could worry about that, but you still have the problem. So you're either going to do it on your timeline or you're not now you don't have to like it, but I like, look, I don't really like reality, but I accept it. Like the reality is you either do it and you're proactive about it when somebody shows up and helps you do this, or you wait and you end up with a problem. I don't understand why as a salesperson, I have to wait until you're dissatisfied and you get hurt before I come in and help you change. What sense does that make? And the people go I want to be a trusted advisor. Waiting until somebody drowns and then trying to resuscitate them it's not a great plan. Don't let them drown in the first. Go and interrupt them, show up there, explain to them the world that they inhabit right now, whether they like it or not, and help them change.

And you're right. It's about, do they have the pain? Can you help them with that? That's it. And I already know what it is, which is why I think discovery is a waste of time. I think if you don't already know that, why did you ask for a meeting? It makes no sense to me. You already know, or you should, if you're an expert and you do this work every day, how could you not know?

So couple

[00:43:18] Oren Klaff: things goddamn. I do want to let you know that you were one of our top applicants, we've carefully considered the resumes that we have and Anthony, you have been hired at pitch anything. Welcome aboard, very excited to have you Daniel, we'll get to your HR onboarding kit. We'll start delivering you some leads right away.

And I'd like to see what your revenue performance is over the next quarter, but welcome aboard you are hired. I like you.

[00:43:43] Anthony Iannarino: I just need to, I just need to know when I when do I get access to the global 6,000? That's the question we got to work that out.

[00:43:51] Oren Klaff: You're a good kid. I like you. So we have to do two things. We have to deliver on the promise that I offer people, which is how to reach anybody. And so I want to offer just a little bit of perspective on that, and I have some other questions for you, but in my mind, so first of all there's three things. One is how to reach anybody starts with not necessarily just getting the intro that you can get on LinkedIn, how to reach anybody is not doing it on LinkedIn.

Hey, my name is Oren and he looks like I, so I would look at your profile and it looks like we might have some things in common. All right. So it starts deciding the way not to get the low status intro. Second, if you can get a high status intro. Great. Third is recognizing you don't need an intro to get there because you can get their contact information like that.

And the fourth or fifth or whatever step we're on next is having something absolutely critical to what they're doing. You don't deserve to talk to a hedge fund manager, to the operator of a hundred million dollar company, to somebody who can give you a million dollar order to somebody who can let you into Harvard, unless you have done some work and understand like what challenges they're facing.

And then it's just firing off a 35 word email, maybe 25 word email, and offering a time to talk. And that's it. That will get you in there's some other mechanics there, but the basics are there to get you in with anybody. Tim Cook at apple, Joe Biden doesn't matter. That's right.

[00:45:27] Anthony Iannarino: Why an email? Why an email?

[00:45:32] Oren Klaff: Why? Cause I'm good at email.

[00:45:35] Anthony Iannarino: Okay. I'm good at the phone. So if they're good at it, that's that makes perfect sense. I just think when we started this, I was concerned about the meekness of people and they're behind a keyboard where they're saying. And they're trying to avoid any conflict. And what I think we're allowing people to do is to avoid the little bit of conflict that comes with interrupting somebody who's got status. That's what I think they're afraid of. They might not like me. They might not buy from me because of this. They're trying to buy from a peer than somebody who's got chops. So your fear and what I would tell you is what I don't like about this right now is you're one of many emails that show up in that inbox of somebody that's begging and asking for something.

And now, instead of, okay I haven't seen your emails, so I'll look forward to that email and you could teach me, cause I don't, that's not, my specialty is emails. I like the phone better because I get synchronous communication and I prefer synchronous communication. Because when you say I'm concerned that this might not be a good use of my time, Then I get to say, Oren, listen, I promise you that's a hundred percent worth your time.

I wouldn't even be asking you for it. What do you look like on Thursday?

[00:46:49] Oren Klaff: Let's stay on this for a minute. Cause if I start emailing you, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to throw away your laptop. Otherwise I'm the content. I'm just gonna take all your money. All right. I want to get into a cold email course right now, but I feel like email I'm good at, and it's the ability to transplant yourself into their situation. They're sitting there at their desk, busy it's Monday morning, your email pops up. How does it hit them so hard square in the forehead? And the ask is so easy to say yes to they're just tumbling down the wormhole before they've even thought about it. That's what the,

[00:47:27] Anthony Iannarino: I defer to you on this, because this is not my, that's not my, that's not my thing.

[00:47:32] Oren Klaff: So you, oh, what to do with the phone call though? If I called somebody and they're like, hello, Hey, this is Oren. How did you get this number to my CRM? Okay. What's this about? I'm sorry. I'm super busy.

[00:47:49] Anthony Iannarino: I noticed you got a hedge fund. And one of your people reached out to me Oren, and said that I needed to talk to you about this cryptocurrency thing.

I got a solution for you. I want to ask you for 20 minutes of your time to tell you how you should make this decision. Whether you buy from me or you buy from somebody else, what do you look like Thursday afternoon? It literally is 20 minutes. I'm going to leave you with some things that you can use to make sure that you get what you need when, and if you want our help, we don't know who we are and how we think about it.

[00:48:15] Oren Klaff: I like it. I do. I like it.

[00:48:20] Anthony Iannarino: Are you going to do you gotta go, like they're on the phone. You got to go.

[00:48:25] Oren Klaff: I'll give it to you. But I think for people listening, you're seeing here too guys, that there isn't a name in the country that you could list from bill gates on down that one of two of these shakedowns sorry.

Did I call it a shakedown? What I meant was outreach communication through professional visit language and FTC compliant, registered techniques. So with that two people that there isn't a person in the country, they couldn't shake down a phone call. I think six minutes, not 20 minutes, but I understand what you're saying.

Do not for a moment think there isn't a prospect that you can't get in with three hits of the button, whether it's email or direct dial. The technology, the thing that's changed is the technology has become so sophisticated and usable and the defenses against those technologies are weak at the moment. And you can get in and connect. Now that's the easy part. The harder part is the conversion. And so I think that's what we've been talking about the whole time. You better get in there, raise your status. Status is about truth and pain. And I feel like we're into nuance here, but the problem that younger people have is cliche.

If I am a more senior manager and you are younger, if you're speaking in cliches, if you're reading books from, five or 10 years ago and things that I've heard a thousand times are things that we teach our salespeople. I know it's not truth and it's not pain. It's scripted cliche. If you go to write a book, if you read Anthony's book, if you read my book, it's pretty much devoid of cliches.

If it has been said before, we try not to say it again, because you do not have thought leadership, if you're quoting other people or saying things that, dead people, the 14 hundreds used to say. So truth and pain and pain get rid of cliche is the status. And then you're an expert, not an expert in your solutions.

See, that's where I think we could be losing people. Hey, I'm an expert in plumbing supplies, right? No, where we lose deals as people go. I love you. Oh my God. You're amazing. I wish you were part of our family. Come over for Thanksgiving. We wanted to, would you like to come snowboarding with us?

I love you. And I love what you offer. Like I'm absolutely dead certain you're the best person who has ever done this since the dinosaurs walked the yard. They're amazing. Great. Let's sign it up mother fucker, but I just not confident enough, to commit a couple million dollars that you've done it in our business.

So it's not that you're an expert. It's not, you don't know the credentials now. You don't have the statistics and now you don't have the logos. It's not that you've worked for Microsoft, but have you done it in our exact search situation?

[00:51:34] Anthony Iannarino: I think that you're creating certainty or if you're not creating certainty, you've already lost and so great. You understand your plumbing supplies. Congratulations. I need to buy 2 million, but I need to make sure that it's going to work. I'm going to need to make sure that it's going to be correct for us. It's going to be delivered. Like I have 20 other things that are problems for me that I'm not going to do on your personality. I do like you and I hope that sometime we get to have lunch, but ultimately I have to buy from somebody who can move my business forward. You're enabling a decision. Chris Biel from Connect and Sell said, people buy from people they trust to make a decision they don't trust themselves to make

[00:52:14] Oren Klaff: hold on a second, that was the reality is that which when you look away, it's still there. But tell me what Chris said again.

[00:52:24] Anthony Iannarino: He said people buy from people they trust to make a decision that they don't trust themselves to make sure. You're still working on it. You had to shut your eyes to go through the math on that. I know, when Chris said it, I took me awhile.

[00:52:42] Oren Klaff: I think ever. I think everything you're doing, for me, trust is an issue because trust takes time. Trust requires human cycles. Trust will requires relationship. If I love these videos on a TikTok or Instagram, these trust falls, where people stand up and then they fall, except that they don't, they're not holding their hands, fall out, high tighten up and they fall, or they, the guy jumps and he completely misses the guys that were supposed to catch them. So trust falls. I love watching those because they remind me how difficult trust is to make and gain and maintain, I feel like in a sale. It's hard to get trust. I think what you're looking for is certainty. That's what I call it. Certainty. So Chris, who I know well says, they're looking for them to trust.

I just, I don't go after trust because I don't think there's enough cycles in a business development or sales or pitch cycle to really get trust. Now you can start to, to get little pieces of it. You can start to lay down the road for it. You could start to develop the elements of trust, but that really, I think of trust like, Hey, I fucked up. I was supposed to get this to you. We didn't, you're in pain. I know you are. I'm mad too. You didn't pay us. We didn't do this on time. This is all fucked up, but we know each other well enough. We're mad at each other. Nothing I can say. I'm sorry, but I know that. Sorry, he doesn't walk the dog and there's nothing I can do to get your server back up yesterday. I know you lost $50,000 in orders. And I'm not giving you $50,000. We don't have it to spread across maybe in short, but it's messed up. But we've been doing this a long time, Anthony, and it's got to, we got to just move forward, even though you don't like me. I don't like the things you said. I don't appreciate them, but this is a relationship and relationships that are real. Find a way to move forward. And that's what we're going to do. I don't let you fire me.

[00:54:48] Anthony Iannarino: I've done that. I've done that dozens and dozens of times in my life, but what about just, can I get you to trust the information? Can I get you to trust my advice? Can I get you to trust my recommendations? And you put something up for today on LinkedIn about, is it rational and logical or is it emotional?

[00:55:08] Oren Klaff: Of course, it's all of those things, but the emotions are what caused us to rationalize in the first place. See, I don't think it works. I don't think you can ask for trust. I think the way you can test it with a takeaway taking my toys and I'm going to play going home. I'm going to play in my sandbox. This is not fun. You don't do the things you say you're going to do. We just don't need the money in an account bad enough. So if you believe that relationships are as good as they can be at the beginning, why would I follow? Why would I want this relationship to go further? So the question is you're busy. You don't know us well enough. You didn't realize we were so sensitive or whatever. You're used to smacking around your vendors as if they were replaceable. And now you're having a guy that says, Hey, we're in a relationship. I'm not going to work harder in your company than you will. We're doing this together. You have a real problem. I don't have it. I've solved this a thousand times. I can make this go away, but I'm not going to do it for you. I will do it with you. So let's figure out, does it make sense to continue or is this the end of the road for today? And so then I think you're testing. You can test trust. It's very dramatic, but you can test trust in that way, but I'm just not sure. I, you can ask for it. You can,

[00:56:39] Anthony Iannarino: I don't know. I wouldn't ask for it. I just try to give them the certainty that allows them to trust. That's all I think you could do. I have a very strong belief that the only thing that you have is a conversation. So you should be really good at the conversation. And you're a verbal, like I am. So you're good at the conversation. That's all you have. You don't have a company there with you there's somewhere else. You don't have the solution with you and they can't benefit from the solution. Anyway, those logos don't do anything for them. All you have is a conversation where you're going to have a conversation about what you call truth and pain, and I'll agree with you. They're like, what else do you have? There's nothing else here. And the person who doesn't want to do this. So here's how you lose trust Oren you go in ,and you're mealy mouth, and when that COO, who made sure that I recognized that he wasn't going to look at me you address it and yeah. And then they know to trust you because you're going to tell the truth regardless of what the outcome is. And I'll tell you the outcome of that story, just so you know, they did exactly what I told them to do.

They botched it up beyond belief and I lost a $6 million client, six weeks. The truth at any price, even the price of the deal, but I'm not going to sit in a room with a guy and lie to him and let him get hurt worse. That's just a decision and you have to be that you just have to occupy the space.

In my opinion, you occupy that space. Like I'm going to be the one that tells you the truth. When you tell them you suck and you're not doing your job, you probably get the trust. Cause you're the first person that was courageous enough to say it in the first place.

[00:58:16] Oren Klaff: We've got around the corner here and let you get back to working in the coal mine.

I think that's, what's the one thing that was great is Anthony actually does this stuff. We're actually in the middle of deals. And so that's, I think why you're seeing why this is relevant today. Would you rather see somebody sell nice or sell angry? If those are your two choices,

[00:58:38] Anthony Iannarino: I would have to go with angry more over nice. I don't know. What are you projecting with? Nice. So I think the problem that we have, and I'm not saying don't be diplomatic the diplomacy matters, but if you want to be liked, so it's good to be likable. It's awful to need to be liked. Those are two very different positions. If you have a natural charisma and you've got a personality, great use it.

If it's pleasing personality and people like you great for you, but if you need to be liked, you're a beggar like you, you're in there and you're in a very low status position if you need that.

[00:59:16] Oren Klaff: Yeah. Here's how I agree. Here's how I solved it because I do I enjoy being nice. I like to be liked. I get needy. I get reactive to people. And so what I've trained myself to do is be angry at problems. I am so fucking mad that this problem exists for you. When it is boop to solve, right? Like I, I could fall asleep after a late lunch and my head can hit the keyboard and the keys can, my forehead, I just ripe a crack to me and then solve this problem. This is stupid that you're suffering through this.

[00:59:53] Anthony Iannarino: I like it. You got a villain. Yeah.

[00:59:56] Oren Klaff: The villain is a problem. You get mad at problems. Then you can view, you have the ability to defend yourself from being the nice guy, low status taken advantage of, but you can be kind and you can give people enough time to make reasonable decisions and not be pushy, but be mad and pushy about the problem.

And either we're going to fix it or not going to fix it. Cause you have the number one expert who does this kind of thing. And I'll give you enough time to understand the right way to do this, how we do this, why it's important, what it costs, let you sleep on it, give it the weekend tests. If this goes on, I am, I'm quite confident. This problem continues over on your side. I'm quite competent where it's going to end up. And that's nowhere good. And I don't want to be any part of it. Let's just, let's get this solved and something that you said is very interesting. Either do it with me or do it with someone else, but I'm mad at the point.

[01:00:56] Anthony Iannarino: That's right. And the do it with me or someone else is look, this is the right answer. How can you trust it? The right answer? Because you're going to do it with me, or you're going to do it with someone else. And if they tell you not to do this, then they're wrong and they're not giving you the best advice.

So that's part of it. I do want to say one thing about what you said there. If you are a young person, if you happen to be young person, or maybe you're just somebody. Who wants to be liked. And you think that's a good path, the hack that you just gave them the psychological processing that you do there to say I'm going to go on and be pissed off at the problem.

If that can get your heart just to get it, just get a beating a little bit harder than it is right now. You're going to do better in that. You will do better in that meeting. There is zero doubt that energy is going to come across as confidence and concern. And that's somebody who's got some expertise and they're trying to help me with it.

[01:01:47] Oren Klaff: I thought that was a brilliant, it's not something I've ever seen or heard anybody say before. And it was a, I think it's incredibly useful. Thank you. I appreciate that. And one of thing that we're on this, I feel like if you're under 30 and you're really get committed out of this call saying truth and pain gives me status, do not ask people, if you can tell them the truth. If you have the truth, you say it, you don't ask permission to tell the truth. Cause that's what we'll see happen. Unless you add that step into it.

Hey Anthony real quick, you had a, when you were younger, you had this surgery. We don't have to get into it.

[01:02:34] Anthony Iannarino: I know I've told this story many times I was 25 years old. I was in Los Angeles, fronting a heavy metal band. I know it's hard to believe at this looking now, but I had hair to my waist and I was a front man. And I walked up the steps in my Brentwood apartment. I had a grandma seizure and it turns out I had something called an arterial venous malformation in the back front.

And it was a very big knot that was pushing on my brain. And that's what caused me to have the grandma seizure. When I went back to Columbus, Ohio, and found out the best guy to remove it was Dr. John Tso. And look, you want an expert. If somebody is cutting your head open, you hope that they're, one-up like you, you're very hopeful.

That's true. And he is a man of very few words or in yes and no, and not very many things H submit me or proposal. How much is I do it with you. If I could get a 20% off and the coupon, I don't want to pay a lot for that fentanyl. Okay. But I don't want to pay a lot for fentanyl.

What do you charge for fentanyl and your surgery? Yeah. I don't know. I asked two questions. Yeah. I asked two questions. I said, how many of these have you done? And he said, thousands. They only word he said. And I said, do you believe that you can remove the AVM from my brain? And he said, yeah and that was the two questions he answered.

They put me to sleep. I was awake and they glued it shut with a type of epoxy. So that was a nine hour surgery I was awake for. And then the next day they cut out the ABM and without telling me that they were going to do this, they cut off a piece of the back front temporal lobe. So I woke up to the news that they had to cut a piece of my brain off.

So that, that was an interesting experience. I will tell you any time somebody says, do you remember that time where he did this really embarrassing thing? It got cut out. Like I have no recollection of anything that's inconvenient for me now. And after that I went to college, then I went to law school.

Then I went to Harvard business school. So I just tell everybody that was what was holding me back.

[01:04:34] Oren Klaff: Yeah. Thank you for sharing. It takes a lot of courage to share, something like that. I know you're in your Intuit, you've talked about it a few times, but still, we have a, to, to share that live on the internet, but, can you stop telling us about your problems and why you can't get something done? Think about Anthony and having to get, go through this situation. So we don't really need to hear about how hard all the things that you have to do are. That's really amazing. What is your favorite? A hair metal band. I'm sorry.

[01:05:08] Anthony Iannarino: The hair metal band that caused me to start a rock and roll band was Whitesnake.

And it was because I took my girlfriend to the Whitesnake concert. And when I saw her looking at David Coverdale, I was like, I'm way, I'm in way deep trouble right now. Like she's looking at him in a certain way. And I was like, I'm starting to rock and roll band immediately. It was it was the right decision.

The thing to do that at that.

[01:05:32] Oren Klaff: I think for people, don't know hair metal bands and they look at it and they go, this is a joke. But if you look at David Coverdales actual credentialed musical chops, his brothers in led Zepplin he was in some of the iconic bands to come out of the late seventies, early eighties.

Like these are real musicians that very unfortunately got pushed into eighties hair metal and had to dress that way and wear their hair that way in order to produce music. And it is, one of their biggest regrets is the comical clownish nature of those. But someone like David Coverdale is one of the iconic and most talented musicians of the modern era.

And you should not look in any way past the fact that their name or their band. It has the word snake in it, but that is, I do know the band would have been Merciful Fate. One of my,

[01:06:22] Anthony Iannarino: oh yeah. I saw, yeah, I saw merciful. I saw them at the Newport Music Hall with Armored Saint and a Slayer.

[01:06:32] Oren Klaff: Yeah. So my favorite best song by merciful fate, if you guys are interested in listening to some really good music, nuns have no fun.

And I think that we're rounding the corner on everything that possibly could be talked about between Anthony and Orin today. Thank you very much for attending Anthony. Where should people go to give you money for your awesomeness,


[01:06:55] Anthony Iannarino: I post every day there. So that's the right place to go. You could sign up for the newsletter there and we'll send you stuff.

[01:07:00] Oren Klaff: All right. So cancel whatever you're getting from me and go get the real stuff from Anthony over at thesalesblog.com.

[01:07:08] Anthony Iannarino: Yeah. Get, or took sales, blog.com and never did anything with it for 15 years. And then called and complained that I did like

[01:07:17] Oren Klaff: that fucker, the sales blog.

Yeah. Yeah. I know Jeffrey he's quite difficult to work with actually I guess Jeb and you and Anthony and Jeffrey all have to get along. So would that invest some time in Anthony's material? It's fantastic. I really appreciate for the truth and the pain that you've shared here today.

And I think all of us can do a lot with by listening to how you've laid it out, but also just the pedigree and poise that you have in your delivery. It's just a masterclass in smooth, confident, poised, and direct, and this is what buyers want to see. I'm very impressed by it.

Thanks everybody for being here today. We'll see you next time on the dealmaker show. Thanks.